>>194716
Yeah that's about $7k for a week worth of power.

But the bitcoins that are transferred already exist, so it takes no energy. Is this written by a brainlet?

>>194720
Are you retarded? Do you have the slightest clue what the blockchain even is?
You can't transfer anything without the miners. The unlocking of new blocks is the center piece of the entire thing.

True. The network is burning millions in electricity cost every day. It only stays afloat because new money keeps pouring in. It's a ponzi scheme.
As soon as there is a slight hickup of new suckers the entire thing implodes to zero.

>>194720
>says that someone is a brainlet
>it a brainlet himself

so what happens when no new bitcoins are created?

>>194734
You can't transact and the value falls to zero.

>>194736

There will only ever be, what was it, 21 million bitcoins? That was the cut off preprogrammed into the chain, which if current rates continue (roughly) means all bitcoins will be mined between 2025-2030. Are you saying that when no new coins are being mined currency transfer of any kind stops the currency becomes untenable? Because that sounds like bollocks.

>>194746
They will change that. There must always be a reward for mining. Because without miners there is no network.

>>194747
>>194746
this is maing it sound like its doomed to fail from the start.

>>194716
When all bc mined, miners compensated with transaction fees.

Moore’s law + transaction fees - new bitcoins * you’re a retard = profit

>>194752
>muh fees
Yeah. At the current electricity cost that would be a bout 20%.
Let's see how long the network lasts when people lose 20% of their bitcoins on every transaction.

>>194747
The whole point is it should be unchangeable, the block chain can be fractured into infinitesimal fractions but cannot be extended beyond the 21 million bitcoin limit, if it is alterable it is corruptible and therefore worthless as a finite resource. Reliance on mining cannot be the model.

>nerds make up their own currency system out of literally nothing and pretend they know economics

>>194758
You're talking about Nixon, right?

>>194716
>confusing miners with nodes

>>194716
Holy shit this has got to be awful for Global warming.

>>194755
Good thing there are millions of alt coins out there.

>>194776
All just different colored tulips.
When bitcoin bellyflops, the entire thing is over.

>>194776
>>194778
Could be right here, digital currencies all operate on the precept of scarcity, tulips only had worth before everybody started propagating tulips.

I never understood the whole thing about "bit coin mining" and how people kept buying high end graphics cards for it and shit. Why should generating a currency require you to jump through hoops like solving pointlessly hard puzzles?

>>194775
>Global warming

*facepalm*

having bitcoins banned worldwide because muh global warming would be spectacular indeed

>>194796
> I never understood the whole thing

With lower intelligence, there are some things that can never be understood.

>>194716
Could you imagine if these people put this much effort into distributed computing for stuff like cancer or alsheimer research? The boon in research power would greatly boost our knowledge about several diseases and conditions.

>>194843
Subtle...

>>194823
>>194843
>>>/reddit/

>>194716
"Bro, I can make 200k off of bitcoins. Cryptocurrencies are the future. Totally bulletproof."

Your time will come cryptotraders, and there is no one in charge to point the finger at. So when the shit hits the fan, and your eWallet is empty all of a sudden. Remember that some uber-rich shyster took your sorry ass for a ride.

>people are taking this pseudo-scientific article seriously
This thread wreaks of boomer posting

>>194721
>>194723
You guys are morons. It takes basically no energy to perform a bitcoin transaction. It's the mining if brand new coins that takes a lot of energy.

>>194843
>doesn't want to explain it
>instant insults
Maybe it's not worth understanding when you're being a bitch about it

>>195062
>can't further inflate the currency without immense and unjustifiable cost
>suddenly deflation sets in
>suddenly everyone pours out of BTC
>suddenly collapse

>incoming b-b-b-but it's different because it's the internet! THE INTERNET IS SPECIAL! PRAISE KEK!

>>195095
BTCshills rely on a thin veneer of being the "intelligent" choice without actually being intelligent. Common trends in the BTCshill's arsenal are techno-futurism overtones and promises of inexhaustible wealth (red flag!)

Distrust the narrative.

>>194990
>wreaks
kys

>>195062
Before calling someone a moron, you should get your facts straight. Or, just let it go. What's worse? The inevitability of moron-ness or bitching about it after the fact of observing moron-state? Fact is, bitching about something with low facts on hand is just being lazy and probably evidence you are intending to slow everyone else down with your own moron-ity. This is the general approach of most humans, to knock others down a peg instead of raising themselves a peg to make things better.

Thankfully, Bitcoin works holistically as a result of three different technologies. The first, mining, does a few things, which INCLUDE discovering new coins AND validating existing blocks, which themselves contain transactions.

When new mining rigs are released, they are faster than the previous versions, usually by a factor of 2x or more. That means new rigs are being put into production over a given time range while old rigs are being shutdown and pulled off the grid. If you can't understand the economics of why rigs are swapped out, then you should go read about infrastructure more. Google turns servers off in the rack when they die. It's not worth continuing to fix and run older inefficient servers, no matter the use case. The speed at which silicon is improving simply makes this an economic eventuality. It also means most conversations which intend to bring things down a peg are behind the curve, knowledge-wise.

>>195106
In Bitcoin's case, current tech can do about ~0.1 Joule per GH/s: https://www.buybitcoinworldwide.com/mining/hardware/antminer-s9/. Assuming we use the current tech and current difficulty (which peaked at 12 million TH/s a few days back: https://blockchain.info/charts/hash-rate), we may estimate a cost of running all new rigs for the purpose of mining new coins and validating current blocks and transactions. Assuming a TH is 1,000 GH, difficulty would have peaked at ~1.2x10^19 hashes per second a few days ago. We'll assume it stays there for a short time, which results in ~1.2x10^10 GH/sec, or ~1.2x10^9 Joules/sec, or about $60 of electricity a second, depending on where the rigs are. Most rigs are in China, which can deliver power at pennies per KW/h. This is, interestingly enough, about the same power as a lighting bolt, per second. Here's part of what I used to ask Wolfram Alpha this question: (tera * 12,000,000)/giga, just in case math failure.

At $60/second, that works out to about US$1.8B/year of electricity, not including the cost of producing the equipment burning that power. Looking around, it looks like US consumed ~1.055 × 10^20 joules of power in 2014 (or 2001 depending on where you look so an idea of error margin is considered). This works out to about 4 orders of magnitude MORE energy than the Bitcoin network.

Depending on math, Bitcoin might consume a ten thousandth of the energy the US burned in 2014. Big fucking deal, in other words. Yeah, you can argue this anyway you want, but the point is that it takes power to do cool things and the power we consume for a thing doesn't mean it's not worth it, even if you are a moron and argue it that way.

>>195107

Moving on, the second thing that makes Bitcoin work are the nodes. These nodes form a decentralized network and blockchain store in which transactions can be shared, exchanged and stored. Transactions are taken for face value until they are validated. This network works similar to other decentralized services, and it's pretty well validated by this point, given Bitcoin allows the network to monitor a transaction's validity by mining the shit out of it in the previous thing that makes Bitcoin work.

The third thing that makes Bitcoin work is the public/private key pairs for a given address. Technology here is what would be considered a wallet or address. Printed wallets contain both keys, public payment addresses are the hash of a public address and some electronic wallets may contain a node, or simplified node connector.

That's it. With those three things: miners, nodes (and the network) and wallets, you get a cryptocurrency. Obviously there are critical components to each, but it is the holistic use of all three at once that gives us the solution.

The value of Bitcoin, compared to the US dollar for example, is an entirely fictitious amount created by humans and humans alone. It is human's collective belief that Bitcoin is worth X amount of dollars. This means there will exist a subset of humanity which will work toward destabilizing the collective belief. Unfortunately for them, the mining speed increases and stable cost of running the network will continue to upend their desired outcome. In short, trolls of Bitcoin may troll, but their efforts will be increasingly ineffective moving forward on the price.

>>195106
>When new mining rigs are released, they are faster than the previous versions, usually by a factor of 2x or more

Nope. Moore's Law is no longer in application. Processors don't double in speed every two years anymore. It's getting harder and harder, longer and longer to get to the same point.

Your entire premise is based on an outdated fallacy. Your calculations, because they were based around a faulty premise, are also wrong.

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/600716/intel-chips-will-have-to-sacrifice-speed-gains-for-energy-savings/

>it takes one FOURTH the entire power of the united states already
>this is a good thing because uh....

>>195099
>suddenly deflation sets in
>suddenly everyone pours out of BTC
>suddenly collapse

A year or so from now when this still hasn't happened and BTC pops $10k, will you admit you were wrong, or will you still be reblogging scare articles from dying leftist news outlets who thrive on pseudoscience and misinformation?

My guess is the latter.

>>195110
>Nope. Moore's Law is no longer in application.
>here's a few bare bones "retorts" built more on sass and less on information
>now let me ignore everything else you wrote
>here's a speculative article from over a year ago written at a 4th grade level
>I am incapable of discussing anything without referencing media news and pretending I'm a sitcom character

Luddite boomers please go.

>>195113

>A year or so from now when this still hasn't happened and BTC pops $10k

bruh try 2 months to pop $10k, if not 30 days

>>194716
>nigeria
>186 million people
nigeria is in africa though

>>195110

Wow, you really are an asshole. Invalidating an entire argument from a single premise must give you a grand elevated perception of your own self value.

Actually, calculating SHA256 is an interesting problem, and not one necessaraly bound to Moore's law. Algos for scheduling on hardwware alone has optimized the SHA256 calculation, which seeks a very specific outcome. Any information about Moore's law is certainly related, but as for what I said, I said "when they come out they are typically 2x as fast hashing". That is obviously an estimate, but then again I didn't quote a timeline so your entire counter argument (again trying to invalidate my entire post) is pretty much fucking worthless.

Asshole.

>>194854
You're a dreamer, Anon, I appreciate that

>>195109
I've never really understood any of this crypto currency stuff. So basically some guy(s) made up a digital currency, pawned it off as a real usable currency, and enough people decided it was legit that it can be used as a real currency. Given that there is no larger bank/government backing the currency, it seems like a retarded idea to buy into.

>>195220

It's, needless to say, a lot more complex than that. Still not totally, completely solid as a concept but we shall see how it plays out.

>>195196
I just don't understand people anymore. We're too greedy to accomplish anything with a modicum of urgency. Seems like we only ever surpass that when the world is in a state of total war.

>>195184
>all this backpedaling and insults because you were caught out by your won false advertising

>j-just an estimate (read bullshit)

You can't even come up with figures for how fast your mining rigs increase. Fucking joker. Back to /biz/.

>>195220
So imagine you live on the frontier long ago, and you and your town.don't have a lot of money, but you do have some kind of resource like iron or lumber or charcoal. So instead of trading your resource for money, you barter for their goods instead. Then those people might go elsewhere and trade those resources for paper money.

Essentially crypto is like new age bartering. You aren't trading money for money, you're trading for a commodity which can then be used to barter for other commodities. It has the added benefit of being hard to trace, so that makes it ideal for black market stuff like drugs. (there's a reason why several ransomware programs ask for bitcoin or some other crypto)

There are many issues though. Like if you live in a town where nobody wants bitcoin, and you really need to sell, you're basically at the mercy of the buyer. They can wait for a better deal, because it's not like anything needed for survival can directly be bought with bitcoin, and there will always be competing sellers.

>>195220
I think the fact that there is no government backing it was the point

>>195325
>Essentially crypto is like new age bartering. You aren't trading money for money, you're trading for a commodity which can then be used to barter for other commodities
Except the "commodity" in this case is just virtual mud pies with no real value on their own and waste an egregious amount of electricity to make, the only reason they have value is because people pump real money into the system, typically for the sake of laundering or black market transactions as you mentioned. It was always a bubble by its very nature.

>>195336
Real money has even less worth on its own. Most of it is digital numbers, just without the electrical bill behind it.

>>195349
The US dollar is backed by 14000 nuclear bombs.
That's the value.

>>195350
No it's oil. Petroleum is backed by the fed. It used it be gold but gold is problematic.

>>195349
>>195350
>>195382
Businesses and individuals need to pay taxes in dollars. Because they are willing to exchange goods and services for dollars, this gives dollars a market value.

While the US has a lot of negotiating power on the international stage, countries like Zimbabwe, Venezuela and North Korea can and do shun and reject the US to their heart's content. The US does not force anyone to buy oil using dollars, Saudi Arabia agreed to trade their oil in dollars as part of an arms deal, oil can be traded in euros or for any other commodity, however because most buyers already use dollars and there are streamlined financial services based on the dollar it is often cheaper to trade oil using dollars.

>>195336
>waste an egregious amount of electricity to make
This isn't going to be true no matter how many times you repeat it viceboi

>>195463
The dollar can also be forged and printed in unlimited amounts.

I just sold my bitcoins with a slight loss. Because I'm afraid while reading this thread.

>>195481
Visualize bears fucking, you Russian shill.

>>195482
goddamn! how do you know?

>>195481
prudent tbqh, it may continue to rise but at this point it is out of any reasonable investor's risk bracket

>>195504
Consider Bitcoin itself doesn't give a shit what you think.

>>195478
Is it really impossible to forge cryptocurrency? Given the lack of regulation, and that its all digital, it would seem easier to do for someone who knows what they're doing.

>>195325
I think most people understand the concept of bartering. However, you typically barter with something of practical value in some way.
Whether its a necessity like food/water, or something trivial like a trading card, there is some real value to be assigned.
With these cryptocurrency's, its like me picking up a pebble and using it to trade. Hell, a pebble probably has more value since its a tangible object with some real applicable uses.

>>195506
I have seen all sorts of fads come and go, bubbles inflate and burst, I have seen shills shilling even as one thing plummets. In and amidst all this chaos is your capacity for logic and reason and logic dictates a drop of 500 in 1 day is a sign of instability. I may be wrong, it might go up to $15000, though that's for the gamblers to bet on.

Bitcoin's had its run, definitely time to sell, I'm not going to risk waking up one day and finding it has totally crashed.

Intelligent investors will sell bitcoin at this point.

You buy early, then wait for brainlets who think it will go to the moon to buy and inflate the price, then you sell (like right now), which you were planning to do all along. That's how the game works.

I have my hand in anything I can make money in, it's the American way. God Bless America and sell bitcoin.

>>195518
Bitcoin will rise until all the coins have been dug, because there are upper limits of them in the world - "This thing continues until 2110–40, when 21 million bitcoins will have been issued."

>>194722
>the entire thing implodes to zero.
And that, my friend, is the time to BUY! BUY! BUY!

>>194758
>There truly is nothing new under the sun

if it goes below 7000 there'll be no supports until it bombs down to 2000:

https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/bitcoin/

>>195336
>>195514
I never said it made much sense. Bitcoin is inherently worthless, but the fact that people pump money into it and how it's basically untraceable are more than enough reason to use it for clandestine transactions. There are escort services accepting bitcoin now lol. It's essentially become gold, without the practical uses for gold.
Personally I'm with you guys, I was just trying to explain it in laymans terms to that one guy.

>>194747
thread of brainlets dectcected.

ok...fees, will pay the miners. Miners are not forced to mine they can drop out.

POS dPOS coins avoid the mining issue.

the end.

BTC pos if you want

>>194778
you do realise you cannot actually kill bitcoin or the alts.....they are unkillable.

>>196196
>Deflation is good for a currency!

205 KWh? I'm looking after a 4 MW heating boiler for a town of 3000. So instead of heat this energy could be used to mine 15+ bitcoin per hour? Lets divide 205 KWh by 1 billion people. 0.0002 wats per person per bitcoin mined. Oh wow... much electricity, damn.

When are these people gunna figure out that BC is just a container for encrypted data that the .gov created?

Techie consumers willing to cover the dollar and energy cost of spying on themselves?

Absolute genius.

>>196197

Yup.

Unkillable til our .gov pushes the button on the interweb kill switch when the next big war breaks.

Or your power goes out, lmao.

>>194980
bloomberg editorial by Al Hunt:
"While bitcoin’s ability to skirt government and central bank controls is part of what makes it attractive to many, cryptocurrency traders and investors are now finding it might not be such a bad thing for regulators to get involved."

Trading BitCoins on regulated exchanged, like the Chicago Mercantile Exchange, could bring so much volume to the BitCoin exchanges that they would require massive infrastructure upgrades to stay up and available. The instability would harm financial markets, kinda like the Tulip trading bubble in 1637.

ref: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-11-15/bitcoin-exchange-that-cme-plans-to-use-for-futures-is-down

>>197760
(continuing)
Do we want BTC to smuggle payments in or out of countries with unstable or 'unjustly' regulated banking systems? Might be too late to stop it.

Is investing in BTC a scam?
Without the very oversight it seeks to avoid, it lacks consumer protection.

Do we care if people speculate in BTC? Not likely we could stop it, like sports gambling or lotto's.

Should you bet your financial future on BTC? NO
please read:

title: Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds
published: 1841
author: Charles Mackay

first published in 1841, Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds is often cited as the best book ever written about market psychology. This Harriman House edition includes Charles Mackay's account of the three infamous financial manias - John Law's Mississipi Scheme, the South Sea Bubble, and Tulipomania.
Between the three of them, these historic episodes confirm that greed and fear have always been the driving forces of financial markets, and, furthermore, that being sensible and clever is no defence against the mesmeric allure of a popular craze with the wind behind it.
In writing the history of the great financial manias, Charles Mackay proved himself a master chronicler of social as well as financial history. Blessed with a cast of characters that covered all the vices, gifted a passage of events which was inevitably heading for disaster, and with the benefit of hindsight, he produced a record that is at once a riveting thriller and absorbing historical document. A century and a half later, it is as vibrant and lurid as the day it was written.
For modern-day investors, still reeling from the dotcom crash, the moral of the popular manias scarcely needs spelling out. When the next stock market bubble comes along, as it surely will, you are advised to recall the plight of some of the unfortunates on these pages, and avoid getting dragged under the wheels of the careering bandwagon yourself.

You faggots do realize that no matter what math you do here, it will eventually come to pass that

value of bitcoin mining = price of energy needed to mine

Period. No matter what. (The only possible exception would be a Moore's Law-like situation in which new energy just became cheaper every year forever, a fantasy even/especially with fusion tech)

There are cryptocurrencies that don't rely on one-way algorithm mining for verification. There is also at least one, PrimeCoin, that has intrinsic value in the algorithms used in mining itself, though that value is very small. One or many of these will be the only sustainable way forward, unless you want a future in which you centralize and subsidize mining.

>>196856
It's a series of tubes, anon.

>>194796
The cryptographic puzzle serve as protection against DDOS attacks on the network. If you let users directly access the network an attacker would be able to take it down with countless repetitive tentative of connection to it. Instead of that, we need 'miners' who generate the work needed to solve a mathematical puzzle in order to validate, confirms and broadcast the newly made transactions to the network. An attacker would need to generate fast enough proof of work to access and spam the network which is currently impossible without insane quantum computing power and even then some cryptocurrencies are quantum-proofed.

>>197800
>One or many of these will be the only sustainable way forward, unless you want a future in which you centralize and subsidize mining.

Or just use regular money instead of your electronic autism bux.

>>197800
>exception would be a Moore's Law-like situation in which new energy just became cheaper every year forever

That's what Moore's Law is, you idiot. It's a law that says the AMOUNT of processing doubles every so often. If one were to claim it doubled every 18-24 months, then that would be half a much power required to power just as many operations.

In other word, the "exception" you call out here is exactly what is happening when observing real reality, and not that fake plastic crap reality you are seeing in your head (hint, that's not reality, it's just the inside of your stupid mind).

Also, if things double in speed, or half in price, or cost half to operate than a while ago, that's a doubling effect. One is not required to claim a time frame on this effect given it's doubling or halving things periodically, which just means things get faster.

Anyone who tells you things won't get faster or more efficient forever doesn't get where they are. (Hint, reality.)

>>197849
>That's what Moore's Law is, you idiot. It's a law that says the AMOUNT of processing doubles every so often. I
no,
moores law was just a general trend where the amount of transistors that could be fit on a chip doubled every so often, this literally cant go on forever, eventually you are going to be limited by the size of atoms.

>>197849
The point is that there is a fundamental physical and economic limit that will be reached regardless, once it gets to the point that manufacturers are incentivized to make rigs optimized specifically to mine bitcoins at lower energy costs, as they are already doing. At that point it's a matter of whether the equilibrium is stable:

The positive equilibrium forces: niche market manufacturers making better mining rigs with more flops for less Watts; those manufacturers boosted by continuously better processors from science market, and lower power from consumer market; the *possible* continual inflation of bitcoin value relative to paper currencies.

Negative pressures: fixed depreciation of mining value, much lower emphasis on single-thread processor development, that cost of entry gets higher as mining rigs get better since their performance demands outstrip the consumer market (but new entrants buy higher performing rigs the marginal revenue reduces, thus old entrants will have to factor upgrade costs into their income estimates), carbon credits projected increase, energy costs projected increase, competition from other crypto-currencies and nationally-sponsored cryptos as time goes on, etc.

I'm probably missing some. Anyway, Ethereum at least has a flexible substructure so that it can be adapted to changing political realities (such as the current reality that China may even ban BTC altogether due to mining) and will be moving from Proof-Of-Work (mining) to Proof-Of-Stake (not-energy-intensive-verification) in its next version.

are there crypto currencies that require computing power being put into something useful to create them, like simulating protein foldings or something?

>>197941
PrimeCoin. Wiki it. That's the only one really.

But remember, the requirement of computing power is just for Proof-Of-Work currencies. This is NOT required for Proof-Of-Stake currencies and blockchain alts like PeerCoin, Hydra, and eventually Ethereum. The latter is among a generation of crypto platforms in which the algorithmic backbone can be changed, which means that the currency itself will not simply die due to the tech becoming obsolete.

>>194720
mining is the most energy-intensive, but you need energy for every transaction; as they are added to the ledger

you may want to look a bit more into how the blockchain works before posting

>>194716
One time page load on 4chan consumes as much energy as a rocket to the moon.

>>195102
>distrust the narrative
and which narrative is that, oldfag?

>>195811
Dipped to mid 6000 and broke 8000 today.

Eat shit luddites.

Since youre all drunk on koolaid, let me ask an actual serious question for you geniuses to chew on:

If you were an Evil Overlord and you wanted to spy on everyone... but you were also a Greedy Overlord and didn't want to fork out the cash to crunch the numbers...

Would you or would you not dream up a scheme to repackage the encrypted data you intercepted and sell it back to the gullible steeple masses who are more than happy to spend their time and money decrypting it for you?

Seriously. Wake the fuck up.

>>194718
This is per transaction, not per coin

>>195062
You're the moron. Mining is required to validate transactions, faggot.

It's going to be a great day to watch this crap crash, to watch as all those useless members of society lose the little they thought they had.

All the mongoloid and subhuman cries will be music to my ears.

All I want for Christmas is a huge crypto crash so the the GPU miners hang themselves.

It's happening

http://fortune.com/2017/11/21/bitcoin-price-ethereum-price-tether-hacked/

The price is already down 5.8% and dropping

>>199472
Probably not yet
If there is a crash it's got to be a steep drop

>>199446
>>199458
>>199472
>>199503
When it pops $9000 by new years I expect each of you to come back hear, prostrate yourself and present a bottle of your luddite tears for my consumption.

$8314 and rising

I find it simply amazing.
Bitcoin is the first ponzi bubble were people KNOW there is no underlying asset. Yet they buy it anyway.

CFTC allows Futures Exchanges to trade Cryptocurrency futures.
Banks can short Cryptocurrency.
Cryptocurrency bubble bursts.
Banks profit (just like they profited from shorting mortgage backed securities in 2007)

>>195514
>lack of regulation, and that its all digital, it would seem easier
you should read about how bitcoin works at all before writing stuff like that

>>199204

No comment.

>>199507
Underlying asset is child porn and drugs. When it gets too much for dealers to use, they'll just jump to a new coin,.

Holy fucking shit. This amount of electricity is insane.
I thought bitcoin is more efficient than VISA. This is a thousand times worse.

>>199274
The power is not limited to ONLY serving one transaction, however, so you are still wrong.

>>197909
>fundamental physical and economic limit
Turning this into a philosophical debate only creates additional irrationality. If that's what you want to prove, then knock yourself out.

There is no proof that network and compute speeds will not continue to increase over a period of time we all care about, say the next 60 years.

>>199472

Better crash trolls than you have darkened our doorways.

>>199871
If you assert that investing in Bitcoin is better than gambling, to the contrary of what academics and professional traders say about the cryptocurrency markets right now, then you are effectively asserting that Bitcoin has long-term viability (even if only from the standpoint of a sufficiently large base of investors), which for a currency probably means something longer than 60 years. So the point is not merely philosophical.

The other point is that there are local fluctuations that will drive groups past that limit in the short term, and that's already happening: when landlords who were covering utilities suddenly charge miners, when miners have to buy new rigs to stay competitive, and when server farms block mining algos.

>>194746
>>194747
>>194748
On that note, in addition to the bitcoins you achieve from mining, miners will also receive fees from the transactions that the block is bring with them.
Fees are basically the tips that are applied to every transaction, and they were initially very small, perhaps a few thosand satoshi at most, but these days some fees go up to a tenth of a bitcent.
as it stands now, they are a negligible award compared to the coins you get from the block itself, But if the mining operations ever take a major hit (>80%), the rate of transactions will slow down in a major way, causing people to toss in much larger fees (Imagine entire bitcoins) in order to get their transactions first.

This state, though potentially very long, is ultimately temporary, as after the round (2048 blocks) ends, the difficulty will pull itself down so that the current mining network can clear it in 2 weeks.
It might not happen for a decade at least, but fees will overtake the main reward if the network doesn't catastrophically fail.

>>195336
What an incredibly ignorant statement. I understand cryptography is arcane, but when you know nothing and start berating shit you don't understand, it really highlights how much of a pretentious faggot you are.

>>195514
Jesus Christ, why do you have an opinion on something that you've obviously haven't done the research on.

Yes, it's virtually impossible

T. Cryptography major

>>200497
"Forging" cryptocurrency might not be as difficult as you think since there's a bunch of hipster cafes in Seattle and the like that accept Bitcoin. Since the transaction is complete so much faster than verification can even begin, it seems a decent vulnerability for an exploit that would look closer to "forgery" than simple fraud.

>>195220
>Given that there is no larger bank/government backing the currency, it seems like a retarded idea to buy into.
Given the state of current goverments, this is actually a good thing.
As soon as bitcoins are a their peak, we will have new currency, but instead of being backed up by gold, it will be backed up by bitcoins in full rate.
Where I am from ECB is currently overlord and everyone needs to suck its dick for treat.
But most people are fed up by current state of things and will abandon worthless pieces of paper for something, which cannot be controlled or regulated as someone sees fit.

>>195518
>>You buy early, then wait for brainlets who think it will go to the moon to buy and inflate the price, then you sell (like right now), which you were planning to do all along. That's how the game works.
>
>I have my hand in anything I can make money in, it's the American way. God Bless America and sell bitcoin.

I hate people like you. Its irrational, I cant explain it, what you do is legal, yet I cant get that bitter taste from the back of my mouth or nagging in the back of my head saying you are simple fraud.
God, I hope it bites you back in the ass once, so you see it from different side.

>>194716
I guess this is why eth is going pos

>>200599
You want to make it illegal for people to sell at the obvious high of the bubble?
Why not jut ban selling outright. I mean then it can only go up ever and everyone is happy and no one has to work anymore. Right? WRONG YOU RETARDED FUCKING BRAINDEAD ASSHOLE

You are worse than Bernanke.

>>195062
fuck your stupid.
it takes the same amount of energy to mine and perform bitcoin transactions, you have to find the next block either way.

>>200601
>You want to make it illegal for people to sell at the obvious high of the bubble?
>Why not jut ban selling outright. I mean then it can only go up ever and everyone is happy and no one has to work anymore. Right? WRONG YOU RETARDED FUCKING BRAINDEAD ASSHOLE

I never said anything about "banning" or "banning to sell", you are trying to put your words in my mouth and then get pissed off at what is essencially your idea.
Thread carefully, and read once more if you didnt understand.
I was merely expressing my distaste at the fact that it is possible to gain monetary profit from "selling air" as I would put it.
I even said its legal.
However, (and these are my feelings, not fact, nor laws, nor opinions), to me it seems ridiculous that you do nothing but buy something just to sell it later at higher price, as you did nothing for, lets say, common good, just used and opportunistic moment to make profit at the expense of someone else less fortunate, and call it business.
Sure, everyone is free to buy and sell as they see fit (if they have accumulated capital) and (maybe) everyone knows the risks.

>>200606
There will always be stupid people that don't know what the hell they are doing with their money.
And there will always be people like me that will take their money and put it to better use.
It's the most natural thing in the universe.

>>200607
>will take their money and put it to better use.
So you are saying that end justifies the means. I wonder what do you consider "better use" and how much useful it is for them or whether they see the effect before their death.
Or whether we are merely making "the stupid" group even bigger as the times go.
But this goes further back to understand my point of view. Allow me to simplify it.

We created electronicall trading for purpose of saving time and money, for better communication from seller -> buyer. Ok, all fine under the sky.
Lets say there are 5000 people who bring products (real things in the world) to sell, and there are 5000 people who came to sell those real products (in real world) and dont really pay attention to how things work under the lid.
Now it get interesting. Suddenly, comes someone who just has big capital.
And because of internet he doesnt need to lift a finger to buy and sell from one person to other to generate profit, which as it is, with enough knowledge, money and say right instinct is simpler than working and creating real life product.
At this moment, most people call me out on being a faggot for they had to work hard to be good enought to make business like this, and I say fine, you are right.
But lets forget about you and look at everything.

>>200607
>>200610

Cont.


Everyone wants money. Everyone wants to make profits. And the trading can handle it, up to a point.
Because what I believe is currently happening is that we have maybe 300 buyers/sellers that come in to the contact with real life product and 9700 of cheeky business man who want to make profit, from which only maybe 100 make profit and the rest just loose money. That money what is lost in process from getting from real life seller to real life buyer comes from those unfortunate 9600 wannabe businessman who would be better of making real life product, but it just doenst seem as shiny work as electronical trading.

You probably see where I am going with this, if there are too many businessman and no makers/sellers the whole thing ends up spiking the prize of real thing to ridiculous size.

Counter argument could be that there will always be someone who will be willing to create and sell for less, but how he gets to market without getting ripped apart by someone else ?

200 years ago, if you wanted to trade, you had to find someone to sell, then someone to buy. There was lot of travel involved, lot of time, not to mention geographical travel was slow.
Nowadays, you can buy 1000 tons of timber from canadian lumberjacks for 50 000$ while sitting in Berlin in a split second, then sell it to other guy in Moscow for 75 000$ without having to getting up from table.
Or in your case, you dont need to mine bitcoins, or even know who you are trading with.

Please, note that I am not meaning this in a bad way, more of other side of looking at things.

>>200610
>>200611
You really expect me to read and explain all that dumb shit you just posted. Read a book if you want to know how basic economics works.

where can I see the historical trend for bitcoin network fees?

same for exchange commisions?

if the network fee keeps rising why wouldn't younger (cheaper) cryptocurrencies keep replacing older (expensive) ones?

>>200693
There are over a thousand crypto currencies now. Roughly 1000 of them are scams.

>>200613

No I expected a genuine response, but seeing as you can only produce insults I am going to call you a dumb cunt, goodnight, fuck you very much.

>>200607
Canada Bill would be proud.

>>194716
>"the bitcoins bubble is going burst any minute now, idiots!" Says increasingly nervous man for the 7th time this year

The problem with bitcoin is the inherent transaction limit.
As soon as there is any market disturbance and a large number of speculators want to cash out, the system will freeze up TOTALLY. No one will be able cash out because the backlog will be hours then days and then weeks. At that point people will totally panic and even more people will try to cash out.
The system will DDOS itself to death and miners will start dropping out because they can no longer transact their rewards. That's the end of it. Sure there will last minute frenzied fix attempts, like increasing the block size, but this will only increase network cost and make the situation worse.

Bitcoin will rise and it will keep rising. And then it will disappear into thin air.

>>201248
China controls it and won't allow it to fail so of course it's on the up and up.

>>201249
They don't control shit. If it seizes up no one will step in to save it.

I still dont understand bitcoin
People always talk about solving complex problems
What are these problems
Where are they
Who asked them

>>199658
today you can buy anything with bitcoin, i bought my apartment in uk with bitcoin..

>>201248
I was thinking about how the bitcoin bubble could burst and this seems very, if not the most, plausible.

>>201279
They're running encryption/decryption algorithms. These are designed to be extremely demanding on processors to make breaking encryption through trying every possible password highly impractical. Bitcoins don't really use these algorithms as intended.

A bitcoin is a file. It is encrypted again with every transaction so they become encryptions of encrptions of encryptions etc. In doing a bitcoin transaction the legitimacy of the bitcoin is verified by checking if it matches the output of running that many encryptions. This means a bitcoin can't be spent twice and fake ones can't exist. This is done by bitcoin miners who are rewarded for it with bitcoins.

I still have a bookmark that lists price at $80/BTC

Why didn't I spend all my money on this shit?

>>201248
This sounds scary. Has something like happened before in some other market?

>>201251
many miners in China

>>201345
I have to agree.

>>201365
>the roulette ball landed on 17
>why didn't I take out my life savings, max out my credit cards and put everything on 17
>>>/biz/ plz go

>>201436
No, because every other market doesn't depend on computer-only stuff.

>>201591
I see you weren't around in 87

>>201592
I was, but fortunately young enough not to give any flying shit about finance.

Anyway, you'll agree it's an entirely different beast compared to the old infrastructure.

I mean how much is bitcoin being used vs speculating?

>>195807
This

>>201949
100% is in the hands of speculators.

>>194843
>tips fedora

>BITCOIN crashing
>CAN'T SELL ON ANY SITE
Just as predicted

Every government in the world hates bitcoin. Not only because it is impossible for them to trace transactions. The main reason they hate it is because it is a currency created by the people. Not a gorvernment, not a bank. They can not control it, they can not tax it and the worst part of all: someday people could just say fuck your government / bank money why don't we all just deal with our own made currency? if enough people by into it and if regular people would start accepting imagine what could happen.
I mean that is something that probably won't happen, but it could theoretically.

Last warning. Sell while you still can.

>>201953
If that's the case doesn't it survival depend on it growing non stop?
It doesn't seem like the kind of thing tjat would be able to leveled for too long without crashing .

>>202374
>If that's the case doesn't it survival depend on it growing non stop?
Correct. You can get into hotel bitcoin just fine. But you can never get out.

>>202211
>they can't tax it

Lol is that the defense you plan to use when the IRS put you in prison?

>>202211
>a currency created by the people
What?

>>202203
>j-j-just l-like we t-thought!
>it w-w-wont rebound again for the umpteenth t-time
>I-it's just a s-s-ccam!

>>202464
>Lol is that the defense you plan to use when the IRS put you in prison?
>counting on the IRS to understand, let alone approach taxation of crypto while IRS is run by dumbass boomers
LOL

>>202472
>What?
Lets use simple kindergarden boomer phrasing:

Goverment and bank not listen to people
People make crytopcurrenices outside of government and bank
Cryptocurrencies created by the people and not government or bank
That why government and bank fear cryptocurrency
Ooga booga

I must be moron but still do not get why this work.
It looks like a successful(now) ponzi scheme.

How do you even buy things with bitcoin when they are 10000 dollars each?

>>202473
I take it you think the (((bankers))) run everything, right?

>>202473
t. retard

>>202514
You spend 0.0003 bitcoins at a time

invest in alts like these guys
https://discord.gg/ER7NHbj

>>202548
....SO! If you can just add another 0 at the end of the decimal to get a smaller fraction there can be in essence infinite bitcoin? then then why the hell, if not to just make it more attractive, would they say it is finite?

This is just something that has always bothered me about this crypto crap.

>>202548
so how does that work?

I like how they are clueless about how much a bitcoin is. Bitcoin is crazy valuable. It takes that much power because of the time it takes to get a whole bitcoin

>>194722

It's the other way round. It costs more energy to mine Bitcoin because more miners join and because it keeps getting more valuable.

If people dropped out, miners would make a negative with their mining rigs and stop mining, which would mean less miners can solve the puzzle which means the difficultiy adjustment would go down which means the power needed to mine goes down.

It's a self balancing system

>>202569

Are you an idiot? If you added a decimal, everyone who would own 10 Bitcoin would own 100 Bitcoin instead.

Smallest unit of Bitcoin is a Satoshi which is a hundred millionth of a Bitcoin

>>202682

I wish we would adopt terms like Bitcent and Bitpenny.
Know how a Dollar consists of 100 cent? A Bitcoin consists of 100 million Satoshi.
I own 0.35 Bitcoin or 35 Bitcent or 35 million Satoshi.
A Bitcoin is infinitely divisible

>>202702

>crazy valuable

Go kill yourself, and keep killing yourself until you learn how to communicate using English like an adult would. Thanks.

>>202729
>I own 0.35 Bitcoin
hahahaha you poor plebeian faggot i hope that was just an example

>>202729
>A Bitcoin is infinitely divisible
Also wrong, btw. Min transaction is 547 satoshis.

>>202729
I'm having a hard time visualizing that

>>203087

So 547 satoshis is sorta like planck length for BTC? They can't be subdivided further no matter what?

>>203072

It was just an example, but 0.35 Bitcoin is still 4000 dollars.

>>203087
>>203343

There is no minimum transaction limit. Lower transactions just don't make sense because of transaction fees

>>203325
1 Satoshi = 0.00000001 Bitcoin
or
1 Bitcoin = 100,000,000 Satoshi

Idk what you're having trouble with what to visualise

>>203510

"My eyes, my eyes ohmygod my eyes, all these zeros I just can't stand it!"

Fucking hell. The feds are coming
SELL EVERYTHING. RUN FOR YOUR LIVES

>Is It Time to Regulate Bitcoin?
https://www.wsj.com/articles/is-it-time-to-regulate-bitcoin-1512409004

Steam just dropped bitcoin

>>204953
Because of fees.

BUY EVERYTHING

>>194778
But my drug transactions! I can't go back to the street-sheeit!

>>205333
It's just too volatile to use as a currency

>>205630
Noone cares. Soon the futures markets will hit and all the fagets who invested this last month will feel the price drop faster than their poop out of their dilated assholes.

Bitcoin futures trading starts tomorrow.
It will be a total clusterfuck.
http://fortune.com/2017/12/09/bitcoin-mainstream-finance/

>>194716
So I guess now is a bad time to finally start learning how this shit works, and investing in hardware?