Evolution is too deep for me.

It's not the whole solution but an interesting discovery

>>2534148
It's fact.

>>2534148
What is this?

>>2534148
>2 different species breed with eachother
>create hybrid
>hybrid has hybrid offspring
>entire family inbred
>New species guys! Evolution in action!

Also, considering these finches to be different species is pretty silly when their only difference is the size and shape of the beak. Somehow all humans are the same species though?

>>2534148
>All these finches changed a little bit
>They're all still finches though
>And not a single one possesses an organ that its predecessors don't
>Le ebin ebolution

>>2534148
Technically it is a theory

Natural selection is a theory. Evolution is a fact.

>>2534884
It is a theory by definition. Not a law and not a "fact".

>>2534148
Anti-evolutionist main problem is evolution as a theory of origin of species. They're fine with adaptation but get really asshurt when you inform them that adaptation is in fact evolution.

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>>2534148
Neat fact.

With the increase in tourists to Galapagos Islands, the bird's beaks are changing again to be more useful for picking through trash and eating left over human foods.

>>2534865
>hybrid
>inbred
Wat. Also most hybrids are sterile

>>2534897
Gravity is a theory, too. Theory doesn't necessarily mean it isn't fact. It's just the model for how a fact is presented.

>>2534865
>>2 different species breed with eachother
So you don't know the first thing about what you're talking about, good to know.

>>2534948
That makes sense. I wasn't arguing that it's probably true, it was more than semantics than anything.

>>2534897
How about you google what scientific theory means?

>>2534865
We all know their are three or four subspecies of human in existence right now at the very least. It'd just go against the globalist agenda to admit it.

>>2535023
pretty much

>>2535023
>We all know
keep telling yourself that.
just because you found a place where 2 or 3 people agree with you doesn't mean there aren't still billions that know you're retarded.

>>2534873
Species is defined very loosely, but in this case, the reason they’re calling it speciation is becausethe hybrids are only reproducing with other hybrids. Really though there isn’t much of a solid definition of a species.

>>2535033
So evolution wasn't real when the majority didn't believe in it?

>>2535097
it was real, it just wasn't true. Because truth exists in the agreement between reality and subjectivity. It became retroactively true upon its discovery.

the hypothesis that humans constitute a group of subspecies is both true and real, but we're all the same subspecies.

if civilization collapses and we don't travel around and mate with other groups of humans for hundreds of thousands of years we may become different subspecies or even species, but that reality hasn't happened yet, nor has that truth been observed. And there's no reason currently to think it will happen.

>>2534956
There are plenty of animals that are different species which are capable of breeding. You're making a fool of yourself.

>>2535105
>Because truth exists in the agreement between reality and subjectivity. It became retroactively true upon its discovery.
This is what liberals actually believe.

Evolution is a theory. The earth is flat. And 9/11 was an inside job...who knew?

>>2535134
can you define "truth" in such a way that it doesn't involve human perception AND isn't the same thing as fact or reality?

I'm not going to wait around for an answer, I assume you're not smart enough to understand the question.

>>2534865
Hominids are really weird anon, we are like the special snowflake when it comes to genetic diversity in appearance as we can look very very different from eachother and still be the same species but not the same subspecies. Despite this there is more diversity between chimp subspecies than all of humanity.

>>2535105
Wrong humans rigth now are already a subspecies as a subspecies of our species that existed 170,000 B.C in Ethiopia went extinct confirming a genetic split. So yes humans are a species made of many sub-subspecies. We are not all the same.

>>2535196
Same with dogs. All one species that has the potential to mate regardless of phenotype.

>>2535196
>but not the same subspecies
oh, we're all the same subspecies.
"sapiens" is the subspecies name of all humans.

>>2535197
>humans are a species made of many sub-subspecies
there are 2, maybe 3 subspecies, only 1 still exists.

we are all the same subspecies. "sapiens."

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>>2535138
You are not aware of every nuance of your digestive process in real time but the shit you manage to spew forth is tangible.

Truth exists, and it doesn't matter if you acknowledge it. It is.

>>2535223
>Truth exists, and it doesn't matter if you acknowledge it. It is
that's "reality," "fact," or "existence."

not "truth."

truth is in the relationship between your understanding and reality. You have no truth without understanding.

>>2535223
...And no burn cream on hand for that.

>>2535227
it was pretty good, wasn't it?

>>2535225
You have delusion where you think cause and effect care about reason.
Philosopher, you have your place but its not in fact. It is wedged between reason, reasons, and excuse.
You could build a fantastic idea or goal, move societies., but you cant yell a rock into self doubt.

Your opinion does not chnge reality.

>>2535229
>You have delusion where you think cause and effect care about reason
no, you're just mistaking reality for your understanding of it.
>Your opinion does not chnge reality
truth.
but the truth is in the opinion, not in the reality.
that is to say, your statement is true because your opinion is true, not because reality is. Reality can't be true or false, only your understanding of it can.

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>>2535225
As I understand you use up air you blow hotly. Plant a tree so while your every exhale sickens the world, it can balance you out.

Since you need reality to fuck you sweet and philosophically.

May i recommend a fruit tree, so you could have food for thought. A idea to digest?

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>>2535230
Give me a example. I want to believe your not batshit crazy.

>>2535234
that one wasn't as good.
maybe spend a bit more time on the allegory? Just a thought, it seems the longer you take to post the better your insults get. This one was prosaic but lacked the simple impact.

>>2535236
It was the picture, i was worried i would scare off a religious nut with it, but sensed a possibility this person has this viewpoint through that kaleidoscope. I was considering its use more than what i typed. Wanted to unpack their response better with its risk.

>>2535235
I just gave you one.
>your opinion doesn't change reality
this is true.
not because the reality is true (reality doesn't bend to opinion),
but because the opinion (reality doesn't bend to opinion) conforms with reality.

another:
>the sky is blue
this is true
not because the reality is true or false (the sky is what it is regardless of your opinion)
but because the opinion is true. (the opinion agrees with reality).

>the sky is purple
this is false
not because the reality is false (the sky is what it is regardless of opinion)
but because the opinion is false.

the truth or falsehood is in the understanding of reality, not in reality itself. Reality is neither true nor false, only our understanding of it may be.

>>2535237
I am both the person you're trying to insult and the person you're explaining your attempts to.

we are both one person.

I am not religious. At all. I am well aware of religious symbolisms though. Philosophically the Judeo-Christian faiths are unsophisticated and I don't read much into their ideas.

>>2535235
an even better exposition is this:
>this statement is false
the statement is paradoxical. If it's true then it's false, but if it's false then it's true.
paradoxes can exist in thought and language, but not in nature.

so we can see from that one sentence that truth and falsehood exist in thought and language, not in nature.

>>2535238
The visual wavelengths your eye sees is not all there is. The sky is a lot of things you dont perceive. The miles of moving heat patterns, the solar radiation, the ultraviolet glint off clouds, the water vapor that isnt yet clouds, the photons bumping each other, the soundwaves, the wind swirling up, all you cant see .It is also blue. Your opinion is not the whole truth. Your blue is not my blue because im a little color blind.
Reality is unmoved.

>>2535248
>Your opinion is not the whole truth
absolutely.

and that brings us back to evolution.

it was nobody's truth before it was discovered.

as soon as it was discovered it became a common human truth. And that truth applied retroactively (humans understood that evolution was true before they knew it to be).

but prior to the discovery of a truth it's just unknown reality, not yet human truth.

>>2535248
Mapping out the effects of cause and effect is usefull. But to feel vindicated in it at the expense of being part of it is silly.
Philosopher, do you work to make the world better with your hands or sit with a superior smirk to no effect ?

Reality awaits your grabby lil fingers.

See what you do is waaaay more important than what you think.

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>>2535252
See smart creatures adapt.

Or die out in the long run.

Your more evolved than that arn't you philosopher?

>>2535252
>Philosopher, do you work to make the world better with your hands or sit with a superior smirk to no effect ?
I seek to end it all.

nothing more or less. Once everyone understands the complete and ultimate futility of all endeavor all we're left with is fucking and eating and killing to eat and killing to fuck and dying when it's our turn to do so.

just like we've always done.
I agree with you that philosophy is pointless, and I doubt it's an evolutionary advantage of any sort. Thinking is overrated. Fucking and eating are where it's at.

>>2535260
Eh, you could just try to stabilize the future for better visionaries.

The biological template is a good thing to have if ever our future possibilities need or want to go back to the drawing board. So fucking and eating is usefull.

Why not have a lush environment to enjoy fucking and fighting at leasure rather than necessity. (Or at the expense of all around you )

>>2535260
You drove up and over the cliff of where this conversation could go. I like the kamikaze style.

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>>2535263
>Why not have a lush environment to enjoy fucking and fighting at leasure rather than necessity.
very simply because the planet doesn't have enough resources for all of us to enjoy that environment and it never will.

the only way to get there from here is either matrix-style virtual reality or mass death of 90% or more of the world's human populations.

neither would be pleasant. We're not likely to survive either option. We have advanced too far to live in harmony with our planet, and too far to live with going back.

>>2535268
Dyson swarms, terriforming other planets, orbital colonies, ocean based cities. ..

Its like you want your species to die in the cosmic cradle with that lack of vision .

>>2535273
we're thousands of years from any of those supporting billions of people and we need them now.

I don't care if our species dies, it doesn't matter. But realistically we probably aren't going to survive another 200 years. The next 100 are going to be brutal.

if we do survive it will be in much smaller, dumber populations.

>>2535273
Digital sentience, biohacking...

>>2535277
both implied in "matrix-style virtual realities."

>>2535279
Eh you could maybe do those and not destroy everything.

>>2535279
Why not have a lush world and the option to enjoy it in flesh or nanotech?

>>2535283
yes, that's what I said.
virtual reality is our most likely escape vector.
but once that's done a person could easily kill off 90% or more of the world's population and both the survivors and the victims would never know it happened.

so it's sort of moot.

>>2535286
A solar flare could act as a emp. Your gonna need some fleshy person to pull the reboot lever.

>>2535287
there's no particular reason for that fleshy person not to kill everyone anymore than there's any particular reason for you not to wipe your hard drive.

>>2535284
more philosophy, but that gets into the question of whether you can have pleasure without also having suffering. I don't believe it's biologically possible.

but even if that were our goal, we can already run wires into our brains and experience non-stop pleasure until we die, so why not? or more particularly, what's the point of either option? You can probably get on welfare and spend your days masturbating and smoking heroin, but what's the point?

>>2535286
I dont think you get me. Tecnology in the far could download your mind into a robot, nanotec swarm, or be fleshy in real time in real life, non virtual. All while enjoying a world your ancestors were nice enough not to fuck over?

Words...

>>2535293
I doubt it will ever happen. Your mind is a biological system with the sole purpose of keeping your body alive long enough to reproduce.

if you take away the needs of the body it has no use. Back to eating and fucking, thinking and experiencing is not its own reason for being.

>>2535290
Maybe you own your incapible of joy as deeply as some people and do what you can to make somone else smile a smile you can only fake. Your not the type to enjoy all the nuance are you? Lift up the world, you can only see its underside anyways.

>>2535296
agreement...

>>2535296
No actions....

>>2535296
Idol hands overseen by flapping jaws.

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>>2535298
>Maybe you own your incapible of joy as deeply as some people and do what you can to make somone else smile a smile you can only fake.
this is also what I said.

the future is not philosophers, it is literally the people just dumb enough to enjoy life. Eating and fucking. We aren't "more evolved," we've gone too far. And by "we" I don't necessarily mean you personally.

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>>2535302
>In a jar of apple juice the bacteria keep reproducing untill the environment is so toxic none can live.
Apple cider vinegar is good for your health.

Its a bit difficult to swallow.

Maybe your right.
That's if we choose to be no better than bacteria.

>>2535307
the choice is an illusion since it requires removing the biological imperative, and once the imperative is removed the need for the choice ceases to exist.

to choose not to reproduce is to choose not to exist, we have billions of years of that reality behind us. When we abandon it we truly will become extinct. You'll notice this also agrees with my goal of ending it all.

>>2535309
Birth control, economic failure, depression, social burdan in having kids stupidly, increasing sterility, rainbow spectrum of gender and sexuality concepts. A sense of self fulfillment outside of reproductive motivation roles burgeoning in global society.

People are reproducing less. Infanticide and abortion are up too.

>>2535316
Even where i live "breeders"(rapid fire baby machines) are constantly ridiculed.

>>2535316
yes, increased intelligence itself limits population sizes. Getting smarter is the best way to end it all.

of course our problem is that some areas are getting smarter and wealthier but others are not. And that goes back to the simple fact that the planet does not have the physical resources to support all of us in the same comfortable style.

we confront the paradox where the people that live most comfortably are the ones least interested in continuing the species, while the absolutely miserable ones can't stop reproducing. This should point the reader away from their ideas of paradise, it's comfort that kills us as a species and stupidity that keeps us alive. There's no particular reason to want more comfort or less stupidity unless we want the end of humanity. Which we do, though perhaps we don't realize it. Because wanting impossible things is very close to wanting the end of what is.

>>2535327
Good news. Opiate addiction in America is muddling the rich and poor and smart and stupid. Some gene mixing occurs, opiate addicted babies are born daily. They may represent a thining of types of detrimental genes.

>>2535332
Whooo! Curveball.

>>2535332
and that takes us back to the philosophical question of whether pleasure is its own reason for existing.

and to the biological problem that wealth and intelligence tend to destroy themselves.

>>2535335
Short term joyseekers are detrimental, rich, poor, smart or stupid. Short term thinking is detrimental.

>>2535343
Tend to be addictive types, tend to be a burden, tend to want simple feelgood answers. Tend to be easy to manipulate, tend to be bandwagon jumpers.

>>2534148
I wasn't aware the finches weren't finches until they came to the islands

>>2535343
>Short term thinking is detrimental.
yes, but long term thinking consistently butts up against the existential crisis. Short term thinkers aren't necessarily dumb, many of them are smart enough to realize there's no light at the end of the tunnel.

thinking in general is detrimental beyond very specific situations. Which is why we find ourselves where we're at.

>>2535345
this is true, but only because that describes most people.

rich people are also very often addictive personalities, and prefer simple explanations. They however are not usually burdensome, easy to manipulate, or followers of crowds.

>>2535350
You are wrong. Rich people effect polocy and social structure and become burdensome with ... you know economic suppresion models favoring greed over function, infrastructure weakness because of unwillingness to invest in long term.

>>2535348
Evolutionary what you think is waaaay less important than what you do.

Thinking your reason for not preserving your species future is right just tilts its whole to being coldly smudged from existance.

>>2535475
See cause and effect dont give a care about reason.

Truth exists without your perception.

>>2535473
(... not having flying cars because Disney changed patent laws, and gas and auto lobbyists moved away from innovation whenever it threatened the bottom line. )

>>2535196
>diversity in appearance

This is not surprising in the slightest when the species in question is present worldwide.

>>2535480
Because of short term greed rather than big term action and thought.

>>2535134
i can not tell if your being serious

>>2534148
Do they have hybrid vigor?

>>2534148
Evolution is a model

>>2534956
>a significant portion of modern day humans are 2% neanderthal
>another significant portion of modern day humans also possess homo donovan DNA
>you, "hurrr durrr different subspecies can't interbreed with each other!"

Also, isn't there a study going on about how different subspecies of baboons are interbreeding with each other, and the offspring are not only fertile, but they have cool features such as an extra set of canine teeth that neither of their genetically pure parents possess?

Not only that, but I am also pretty sure that the various species of Birds of Paradise are all able to interbreed with each other when they can't find suitable mates within their own subspecies, and the offspring are also genetically viable.

>>2537929
you are correct, all subspecies can interbreed with each other and many species can as well.

the division usually occurs if they DON'T for whatever reason. For example human races might be considered subspecies except for the fact that they regularly breed with each other.

dogs and wolves are different subspecies because they can breed but they usually don't.

>>2537931
>dogs and wolves
Oh shit, don't even get me started on canines! Wolves, jackals, domestic dogs, and coyotes can all interbreed with each other and produce genetically viable offspring. Isn't this the origin of the Red Wolf, the result of hybridization between coyotes and wolves in the wilds of the U.S.?

I'm pretty certain that the only groups of canines that can't interbreed with other canines are foxes. But they are pretty much in their own group and have dozens if not hundreds of their own subspecies across the world. Such as the fennec fox VS the arctic fox. I wonder if there are any cases of different fox subspecies interbreeding with each other?

>>2537935
hybrids at the subspecies level are extremely common especially with subspecies that overlap in range and niche.

even hybrids among different species and genera are very common in some animals, particularly the lower animals.

among gamebirds there are even interfamilial hybrids, though I'm not aware of any other group of animal that can do this. Someone else here can educate me if I'm overlooking some.

>>2535196
Isn't it because we're all the descendants of a few thousand people because of a population bottleneck what happened in our past? Thus we have relatively low genetic diversity compared to most other species.

>>2535200
I'd assume dogs are the same way. I have no idea if this is true or not but I'd think that only a few hundred or thousand wolves were ever domesticated from the wild, and all modern dogs are just the descendants of them, hence low genetic diversity. Same goes for cattle, horses, cats, pigs, sheep, etc.

>>2537935
That's because foxes aren't canines, they're canids. They're far more distant.

>>2535134
That's what Marxists actually believe. They call it """"""""""""""""""""critical"""""""""""""""""""""" """""""""""""""""""""thinking""""""""""""""""""""""""""""

>>2534915
This. They can easily accept that a basal cat species radiated out into tigers, lions, leopards, jaguars, cougars, cheetahs, lynxes, house cats, ocelots, etc but they have trouble believing that the descendant of a cat could ever be anything other than a cat.

>>2534148
>mix two birds
>after two generations there is a slight variation
>DUDE WE ALL CAME FROM ROCK JUICES LMAO RELIGION BTFO'D
there are 7 definitions of "evolution"
The one you are talking about is micro evolution

>>2538012
I agree, but notice that the creationists haven't provided a more plausible explanation for how we got here.

god is a nice explanation but ignores the problem of how god evolved.

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OP here. I truly love where this conversation has gone.

>>2538015
you're easily amused.

we could literally fill this entire board ten thousand times over with what we know about evolution.

it's a pity that even <1% of that knowledge is new and exciting information for anons.

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>>2538013
God is unrestricted,perfect. There is no need to evolve when he is perfection itself.
If he wasn't, he would not be God,now would he
How does a perfect thing evolve? I don't know, gonna go ask him now

>>2538021
I respect your choice in belief, as an atheist I understand belief is better than unbelief.

that said, I don't resect your reasoning ability.
just because you can imagine a thing doesn't mean it exists. I imagine impossible things all the time.

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>>2538019
I mean it’s not necessarily new to me, but I didn’t expect the conversation to go this far. Though bringing up evolution should illicit that sort of response in people. Thinking about our future is what the dreamers do, and hindsight is for the scientists. Humanity will fall soon for we are waking to our doom, and no matter the outcome, billions will die. That is what is best for life. We are just animals bruv created by the same mechanism that brought forth a new species before our eyes. It’s pretty cool to see our creator in action.

>>2538024
amen
>It’s pretty cool to see our creator in action.
if we had a creator it was almost certainly us.

>>2538021
Is God not also capable of creating a system? I am agnostic myself, and think it plausible that if there is a god, it could have given things fundamental properties and left the rest to chance. That is a perfect being in my eyes.

>>2538027
>think it plausible that if there is a god
it is plausible, it's just statistically less likely than the alternative. Because on top of the normal evolution it requires the evolution of that god.

Hopefully you're right, but statistically it's orders of magnitude less likely that you are.

>>2538030
That’s very true. A creator cannot create itself, if that creator must also operate under the same rules. It could be a force beyond the rules, but that’s just a little too convenient for me. I hope we find the answer though. People fighting over it is very tiresome and dangerous.

>>2538027
more likely is just collection bias due to strict anthropic principle:

there is no god but you can't know of all the universes that exist without you. So when you show up you think it's a grand coincidence when in fact you cannot be aware of all the times and place YOU DO NOT EXIST.

>>2538032
I hope there's a god, not because I care about god or my current life, but because that means someone managed to span universes.

I like to think that's possible otherwise nothing we do has any point. I don't give a fuck about gods of religions though. There's no way any human could know them or speak for them.

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>>2538022
Yeah this whole "why are we here" drama is really tedious & tiering after a while
But hey,if some people believe nothing just bounced into nothing & everything came into existence(for no reason)& that eventually sparked life, than I think its ok to believe in a intelligent designer beyond our comprehension.


>>2538027
Are you trying to say evolution is part of God's plan?
Weird idea but I can understand why people would be inclined to it

>>2538033
Multiverse hypotheses don’t really make sense to me. Then again, 0 and 1 being able to reside in the same place also doesn’t make sense, so I agree with you. I have to say though that it’s not my obligation to worry about worlds where I don’t exist. It’s not me being selfish, it’s just irrelevant to my world and universe. If we want to toss around the word “universe” lightly, that’s fine, but seeing even one universe as a whole is still difficult for me. We don’t even know our own universe, but we want to think of others too? That’s weird to me. I understand it’s all just conjecture, a thought experiment or plaything for your mind, but can any of us really understand a universe that we aren’t in?

>>2538037
>I think its ok to believe in a intelligent designer beyond our comprehension.
it's fine.
as an atheist I completely approve of your beliefs even if I don't share them.

because I don't really care what's right or wrong, I care what works. And your beliefs work better than atheism for 97% of americans and 40% of frenchmen.

>>2538038
you're right.

I don't really believe in multiverses any more than I believe in gods. One is just as likely as the other imo.

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>>2538039
Well anon I am glad we had a civil semi-discussion about evolution or creationism, these things generally end up in mindless bickering & name calling very quickly.
I hope you find the light.

>>2538037
Why shouldn’t it be a part of God’s plan? God is not a simple ghost or a reflection of us, but a force that links the physical world together using things beyond our comprehension. As a whole we only see the surface level. I hate to sound shitty, but I don’t think anyone can truly comprehend God until they comprehend the universe. The universe has shown to be more complex than a few simple rules and a man with a white beard.

>>2538041
>I don't really believe in multiverses any more than I believe in gods.
which is a bit of a perambulation since the universe of one picosecond ago is different from the universe of now, meaning I seem to have empirical proof of a multiverse, while god's existence also depends on how you define it. Am I not god?

>>2538042
>I hope you find the light.
I'm married to a young-earth creationist, and that's the dogma I was raised in.

I won't find any light, I just refuse to drag others into the darkness.

believe what makes you happy. My beliefs don't make people happy. Unfortunately what has been seen can't be unseen.

>>2538044
Good point,but why would a all powerful God need to slowly, very,very slowly slightly improve living organisms by chance to create a "competent" being of our level?
That seems like a weak god of death to me.
Yet I can't know 100% for sure so eh

>>2538047
Remember anon,the Almighty is always welcoming you with open arms

>>2538056
>Remember anon,the Almighty is always welcoming you with open arms
once you've seen that god is fake there's not way to unsee it.

don't disagree with people that disagree with you, there's a solid chance they're right and learning that will kill you.

>>2538056
>>2538056
What is weak about establishing a universe? Death is a transference if energy to continuously power the universe. Everything must end, as is the rule set by whatever force that God is and that’s okay. There doesn’t need to be a greater purpose to life because thinking anything will bring ultimate happiness is futile. One will only be happy once they take responsibility for it, and see the world as a timeline of things and not a build up to something truly great. Life itself is truly great if we approach it with a balance of caring and stoicism. But the greatest disappointment will be to find out that ultimate happiness is not what we want.

>>2538060
How can thy truly know god isn't?
What "sacred knowledge" has the serpent unveiled before your eyes?

>>2538074
He who loves silver will not be satisfied with silver
This world will never bring us true happiness, it will never satisfy us
Seek the things above,those bring true happiness of the soul

What you do to maintain your species and your world is way more important than what you think.

All the thought in your head nodding in self asurred right... doesn't amount to one seed planted for its fruit, air, and shade.

We are beasts of physical.
From bacteria to man a long distance in time, and some lift up their clever mouth to the sky draw breath into their magnificent lungs and whine long into the sky. We are capible of self reference, but often choose to whine about it rather than make our world of cause and effect better with the hands we are so very capable of reaching with.

Why not a soecies like that be coldly smudged from existance. To the sounds of its protesting, were we not the point of the universe?

>>2534148
theory of evolution implies that evolution is an acknowledged fact that requires a theory of explanation.
Like, everyone shits, we know this for a fact, the theory of shitting would then be the explanation as to why everyone shits.

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>>2538173
Some would accept being brushed out of existing as a inevitability. .. rather than trying to not have that happen, because that would be some kind of accountability and effort.

>>2538185
I know that, but many people use the term "theory" as a counterargument against evolution. "Evolution is merely a theory!" Like we don't know for certain, but those bumpkins just don't know the difference between theory and scientific theory,

>>2535307
WELP...

>>2538081
>What "sacred knowledge" has the serpent unveiled before your eyes?
ok, sure. Give me a minute of your time.

the first thing I was given to know was if some random person walked up to me today and told me god spoke to him about how to live I would immediately and correctly assume he's nuts. God doesn't do that. Not to sane people. So why should I be any less trusting of a bunch of completely uneducated bronze-age goat fuckers in the middle east 2000+ years ago? Ridiculous.

But maybe god is real even if the bible is a wad of festering shit, right? The quran is toilet paper, but maybe there's a real god out there somewhere? I immediately thought of Luke Skywalker. I know for a fact that Luke Skywalker, Jedi Knight, doesn't exist. You know how I know? Because humans made him up, and that's reason enough to know he doesn't exist. Fictional characters don't magically pop into 3-D reality just because someone makes them up. In fact a nearly infinite series of other people could exist and still Luke Skywalker never would, because he's made up. Fiction. Your god is also made up, and that's reason enough to think nothing like him exists in the universe or ever will.

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>>2538723
>we are Angels to our own Heaven or Hell.

If we fail even the idea of God we are fucked, because we cannot reach for our best potential past our worst features.

Not in some ethreal way.

(Making a usefull point is more important than slaping your table shaking collective religion wangs on the table guys.)

>>2539517
>believing in unicorns makes people happier and more productive
>therefore unicorns exist.

your belief in god makes you a better person. That doesn't mean your god is real, that just means your belief is.

it also means you're a terrible human.

>>2539519
What monster aspires to be human?

I believe religion is usefull.

>>2539524
>What monster aspires to be human?
you're not a monster, you're just a bad human.
>I believe religion is usefull
so do I but that doesn't make it true.

>>2539519
Honestly the cart driver gives no shit the internal diolog of the horse as long as its following the carrot stick in the right direction.

>>2539529
yes, I got your point the first time you said it.

and again, just because you're such a shitty person that you need to believe in Santa Claus so you'll be nice doesn't make Santa Claus real.

it just makes you a shitty person.

>>2539531
I did not say i belive. I said it is usefull as a horizon to follow.

>>2539537
which (still) does not say anything about its fictional nature.

>>2539539
So like this:
Bob wants to build a deck.
He prices things, draws up designs.
All imaginary.
He thinks he has a good design.

But then his engineer butt buddy of his looks at it and says his design is shit.

Both kinda want to have a sweet deck. The idea is vauge, the many translations from design to design confusing, contradictory. But eventually a sweet deck will be built if they really work on the idea.

Religion is kinda like that a vauge horizon point many can agree on needing to work on.

>>2539545
it was perhaps a vague horizon point 2000 years ago.

now it's just outdated trash. The only reason it hasn't been updated is because it was so bad the first time around everyone's scared it will get worse.

>>2539548
Aw, people are the same beasts they were 2000 years ago.
We got cellphones, whoo.
Like community agreed on ethics and moral compass doesn't build the backbone of stability.... The origin might be "quaint" but the result is even in the poorest, uneducated, drug addled corners theres common acceptance on right and wrong.

Social pressure aganst non conformity in part weeds out by pressure from the genepool selfishness, shortsighted. For one example.

>>2539553
only if you ignore the thousands of outdated parts about killing people for eating shellfish and pork, or how piercing your dick is a stoning offense but let's all cut off our foreskins.

the religions of 2000 years ago were barbaric and if you tried to actually follow them today you'd instantly find yourself in prison for stoning an adulterer or beating your slaves. It's complete trash. Plus those holey books are thousands of pages, if we just wanted to draw up a broad code of ethics it shouldn't realistically take more than a couple pages. Hell, Jesus boiled it down to one rather trite sentence, so it's not at all clear what we need the rest of that shit for.

>>2539673
So how long have you been human?

Because its like you think stupidity would not arise if given time with a ideal.

You know, like communism, democracies, monarchy. (Reality t.v. (gag)) It takes a stupid set of human to take a good idea and do tarded things with it.

Thats why social pressures that cull stupid people is good. Whatever the source. Now im not talking about the uneducated or the poor but the fundamentally unevolved in character. The impulsive, addict prone, and the shortsighted.

They litterally bring us all down.

>>2539784
>>2535307

>>2535023
Subspecies are not very solid classifications. Once you lose important defining characteristics like breeding compatibility, attempting to make actual classes of things starts to fall apart.

>>2535023
>3-4

Try 20+.

>>2534865
>That awkward moment your a multicultural mutt who had 8 wisdom teeth grow in.

And never get sick.
Am sterile as a lamppost with my o-positive mate because my body treats the zygote like a pathogen .

Yay hybrid vigor.

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>>2539784
>communism
>good idea

>>2540415
Bonus stats: can growl and purr.
Can outwork any of my coworkers because of natural energy and endurance.

>>2540415
pls be in london

>>2540443
American.

>>2540415
>my body treats the zygote like a pathogen .
me and the wife had that problem. She managed to get pregnant anyways, but our kid was born very premature. He's ok though.

>>2540415
>Am sterile as a lamppost
Common feature of hybrids. You sure your parents were the same species?

>>2540614
How... long have you been waiting to use that?

>>2540447
>That awkward moment you gotta cuck to reproduce.

Evolutions a mystery

>nobody in this thread has mentioned ancient extraterrestrials or genetic engineering

Yeah, just ignore all those pyramids in China, the Antarctic, and in the oceans.

Jesus was a cyborg and he's probably boning Shiva right now.

>>2540959
It's extremely useful on most boards.

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>>2541255
All those arms.

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I dont know if any of this is true, but I'll share it anyway

Some 8 to 10 years ago, my cousins husband, an ichtyologist told me, that there exists a lake in northern Finland he has been on an expedition in. To document isolated populations.

The lake is an otherwise unremarkable spring pond, changing size alot along the year from the meltwater from all the snow there. But the fish there have been completely isolated since the last ice age.

Two species, northern pike and the european perch are showing signs of becoming their own, little isolated (sub?)species.
Neither grow as fast as or as big as their counterparts, both are very dark in coloration, both survive in less oxygen rich water that is more acidic
>the area is swampy, colouring the water very dark and making it acidic.
But most importantly, around 30% of the observed pikes are growing nubs above their eyes, like little horns, and all of them are shorter and stockier than what is concidered normal.

I have heard rumours of such a lake among the fishermen there before. But almost none of the guys I talked to have been to the lake personally.
Which makes me believe its quite likely just a tale.
But one of the older fishermen showed me a picture of one of those pikes(allegedly taken at the said lake), taken with an old film camera. Which showed an otherwise ordinary fat pike, but it was really dark in coloration, even the belly, the pic was dated in august of 1991.
>I still regret not taking a picture of the picture myself.

I am not a biologist myself, but this kind of stuff interests me alot. And I sometimes speculate alot to myself how species X of fish would turn out in Y amount of time in enviroment Z.

tl;dr
fish in an isolated little lake are turning into black dwarves with bumps, but nobody seems to know where the place is, or are reluctant to share the info.

desu I dont know if the wholy story is even plausible in a biological sense.

>>2541401
Dwarfism isnt that uncommon for such situations where living space is limited. Put an european perch in a bucket and it will change colouration.

I guess the first steps of branching into a new species have been taken. But its nothing new under the sun.

Thats why your scientist friend is less excited about it than you are

>>2541401
Gene expression can be elastic and cause phenotypical variation depending on the environment.
It's one way to see empirically if groups of the same species are indeed from the same species.
Baby fish -whatever the name is- A is from a cold river and baby fish B is from a hot river. A swims 0.5 distance unit everyday while B swims 2d.u..
If you put A in B's temperature and B in A's temperature it is expected that A will swim 2d.u. and B will swim 0.5d.u., if they don't it means they are not the same.

Of course this is just a gross exageration just illustrate the idea that they might just be the same as every other fish of their species, just molded differently by their environment.

>>2535023
But we can mate with each other and produce fertile offspring.

I think you're just a brainlet, anon.

>>2535274
This is the mindset of the homosexual.

It is natural that they do not care if the species survives, for they are damaged mentally, and thus do not have that natural drive.

>>2542078
I think this persons problems are more sad than the nature of the person (animal, once animate, or inanimate object)on the other end of their no doubt selfish orgasms.

>>2542078
>>2542137
It's ironic because you try so hard to understand, and pretend that only homosexuals or psychopaths or aliens would experience the existential crisis.

you try to understand even though it's your failure to understand that protects you.

this is why intelligent people aren't our future. Dumb people have a strong sense of purpose and behave violently towards anyone they don't understand. Humanity will never evolve but you're not intelligent enough to see that you and billions of others stupid people like you are the reason it won't.

>>2535023
Do americans really believe their racial classification as any scientific basis?

>>2542428
Yes and no, I live in the south. The doctor at the fertility clinic tells me that some blood types are not good mixes. But tells me that some races have problems having kids together, not in some race defining vindication for anything. But as a statistical problem to work through. My mate is mostly irish, from a inbreeding population and o positive. So the genes are weak a lot of recessive genes, in a medium my body rejects like a allergic reaction. Im considering better gene sources like sperm banks.

>>2534601

Please show factual evidence of changing of species

>>2534897
Theory is the highest level of scientific certainty.

Evolution is proven by dna alone, let that sink in even without a single fossile the dna evidence is enough to prove it.

>>2542711
>So many strains of bacteria giggling in the distance

>ITT: deep thinker from Reddit shills philosophy

>>2542508
Even in what would have been isolated population that could have separated genetically because of inbreeding to the point of 1 being unattractive conventionally 2 being a bloodtype that is non incompatible with fertility 3 having a abundance of fatal resessive genes outside of their closed genepool. Globalization keeps us all interbreeding.

>>2534148
The existence of Australians is evolution since they evolved from British people.

>>2535105
>it was real, it just wasn't true. Because truth exists in the agreement between reality and subjectivity. It became retroactively true upon its discovery.

That's not how any of this works. Truth is not a democracy. Sanity IS NOT statistical.

>>2541696
subspecies can mate and produce fertile offspring, dumbass

>>2543445
>Truth is not a democracy. Sanity IS NOT statistical.
Your sanity depends on the notion that truth is approximately the same thing as reality.
Luckily you have lots of people to tell you that it is. Otherwise, how would you know?

see, the people tell you that truth isn't determined by the people. If they're right there's no reason to believe them.

>>2543445
>>2543469
> all the thought in your head does nothing for your species if you don't effect reality with your action.

Truly, reality is uneffected by idea alone.

>>2543820
truly?

ideas also have reality, so reality is affected.

I suppose you mean some dichotomous external reality that doesn't include you. That reality has no truth because truth is in your internal agreement with it, not within itself.

>>2543895
So whatever self concept unhooks your mind from being in any way responsible for your action and/or inaction in a universe that screams across all here cause and effect is what your going for.

Like a bird who imprints on a man. Shure it sees reasonable birds nesting and mateing. But thats not its reality. It will continue trying to fuck its keepers shoulders. All the evidence dosent matter in its frantic flapping.

Its gened will be wiped from the earth because it dosent jive with the rest of reality with its lying to itself and calling it the truth.

>>2543895
Two people drop a peice of bread on each side of the world and someone says the earth is a sandwich for a moment. This is a concept, not a truth. The earth nor its laws changed while it was a sandwich.

But by all means, eat some dirt.

Were here from a fluke of a fluke of a fluke of a fluke.

Seriously the odds of us existing are so minuscully small its not oven funny or sad.

Now why the fuck are you wasting what little time you get arguing about specifics?

Your here no go enjoy it ffs and stop shitting up an /an/ thread with /his/ shit

>>2534148
Only retards and trolls say that

>>2544790
So you're either responding to an actual tard or feeding >You's to a troll

Moron

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>>2540423
>he hasn't read Marx
You poor uneducated slave.

>>2546441
Capitalism ho, motherfucker.

>>2534148

Every single time I see one of these
>something is/isn't someth-
posts, it's taking some shit that nobody was fucking saying and acting like half the board was saying it.
No one is dismissing evolution on the grounds of being a theory, don't start a thread acting like they are because you're too new/impressionable to come up with your own original OP.

>>2534148
y

>>2538187
This
It's appalling people like that come to /an/

>>2535230
1. You are a sophist faglord

2. Fact by definiton describes all that is true regardless of belief.

3. Opinion. Can only be fact if wholly true

4. Real realty is regardless of perception
Real reality contains truth

>>2535238
False and misleading.
"I perceive the sky to be blue" is fact
"The sky is blue" is not a fact. Considder colorblind, blind, and other creatures without the concept "blue"

>>2546936
>1. You are a sophist faglord
no, you're also just mistaking perception for reality
>2. Fact by definiton describes all that is true regardless of belief.
that is reality, not fact. Fact is a construct that purports to do what reality does in the guise of belief but does not. See also: truth.
>3. Opinion. Can only be fact if wholly true
Opinion is never wholly true
>4. Real realty is regardless of perception Real reality contains truth
truth is contained in the relationship between opinion and reality.

it is not a quality of reality except in the case where reality includes the opinion of the subject perceiving it. Which your definition does not.

>>2546939
>"The sky is blue" is not a fact.
not in the universe of the blind, you are right.

which is kinda my point.

if "the sky is blue" is subjective then "the sky radiates light at 420-550nm" is equally subjective since it also requires the equipment to sense it and the metric to quantify it before it is true.

in truth, fact and reality are equally subjective as opinion, they're just words for how many other people agree on a thing. I agree on my opinion. Most people agree on facts. All people agree on reality.

none of that makes them true.

>>2546939
>False and misleading.
a better way of looking at it is:
>what facts exist if nobody is there to perceive them?
the answer is "none."

reality doesn't exist without a mind to perceive it. This is incongruous since reality must exist to produce a mind to perceive it, and that implies it existed in the absence of the perception.

I argue that reality comes into existence only when you perceive it, and that it becomes real retroactively. I.e. your reality didn't exist until it produced your mind to perceive it. Or if we want to imagine a reality outside of ourselves, reality doesn't exist until a mind evolves to perceive it.

a tree falling in the forest does not make a sound until an ear exists to hear it. Because both "sound" and "reality" are relationships between reality and itself, that part of itself we call "mind," or "ear."

>>2546951
I agree. This os what I was getting at. Without all the effort

>>2535196
No, the only different thing is that human are attached to political controversy. So we can't say we are different at all.

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>>2546936
>>2546939
>>2546943
>>2546946
>>2546951
>>2546958

Regardless of your self dialogue it would be advisable to do what you can to maintain your species future with action rather than thought alone, which amounts to nothing
Perhaps planting a fruit tree.

>>2547071
That way while you guys are all mutually wanking each other to vindication and the whole species slides closer to its demise, your predecessors might have good air to breath and sweet fruit. Perhaps have the positive false impression you cared to tend to the future more than self.

>>2534148
evo is just a meme. literally just survival of the fittest / forced adaption
>implying things just "evolve" from shit to good
species don't change unless they have to

>>2547074
predecessors come before you, not after.

I tend to agree with most of the intelligentsia- humanity has no future and planting fruit trees won't change that.

to engage in useful action you must first determine what is useful. Personally I have already made my contribution to the future by having and raising kids. Now I'm free to sit back and wonder if that was a good idea or not. Ultimately I don't think it will change anything.

>>2547128
>lamarckian in 2000+17
lol

>>2547679
>Lamarck came up with punctuated equilibrium

>>2547684
>punctuated equilibria is not a saltation model of evolution
>t. the guy that came up with punctuated equilibria

>>2547679
>tfw Lamarck was literally proven right with epigenetics

>>2542711
The recent surge of med resistant bacterias.
Also this
http://www.mothscount.org/text/63/peppered_moth_and_natural_selection.html

>>2543424
nah, they just are brits with emu,roo and abo-mination admixture