Vitalik is considering reducing new ETH by 345,000 beginning August 1st -- FOREVER -- Reducing 'at market' sell orders by $60 Million monthly, and global block chain commitment down from 35% to 20%. Do you support the change? I DO, YES! ::Happy Bunny:: by Midnight_Discovery in ethtrader

[–]kybarnet 10 points11 points  (0 children)

You could easily say block reward should be 1 Eth, instead 3 as is suggested here (vs 5 before).

That would make monthly issuance 172,800 or $38 Mil monthly.

And inflation to half that of Bitcoin, 2.2%, and $1.800 Billion less annually as a pure dollar value than currently or $1.160 Billion less than Bitcoin (but still $1.28 Million daily, or 500% more than Dash or double LiteCoin).

That would immediately create a scarcity.

$5 Million less sold daily.

$150 Million less sold monthly.

It's a bit insane to think about.


A larger part of me says the right move is to reduce from 5 to 1 now.

One option would be to go from 5 to 3 to 1 a month apart, but I have to think that would only create problems. Essentially that would just give people more time to create a competitor, while selling the ETH at a higher price, before attempting to tank the market.

What would be wise is to create the scarcity, while a competitor is attempting to tank your product, thus neutralizing the effect completely.

Or rewarding them significantly in natural price inflation if they choose to hold on to your shares.


I think 1 ETH is what puts you on the borderline for a 51% attack. I think with 1.5 ETH you'd be fine - meh maybe 2. What do you guys think is the minimum and would you consider adding a miner to support the chain?

It's a bit of dramatic shift in overall market demand, but it's necessary now or later. :/

One ETH is literally $456 Million. There is no way that supports less than 45,600 computers IMO.


Edit : I did some calculations. Reducing the rate of inflation 80% or from $3 Bil to $500 Mil would reduce the number of new entrants required to maintain stability from 35,000 monthly to 7,000 monthly and cancel $450 Mil at Market ETH sales over 3 months.

This in turn would increase the price required to maintain stability to $1,200. This would bring mining costs back up to $3 Billion. Now you cut mining costs again in half, 0.5 Blocks per 15 seconds. This would create a similar level of scarcity, reducing new entrant requirement to 15,000 (down from 35,000 again), with 1.1% inflation.

Now price goes to $2,400. Mining costs are again $3 Billion. I would then cut the rate of inflation in half again to 1/4 Block per 15 seconds, 0.6%. I would let this stay until Casper, which should stabilize around $4,000 this time next year, with the same annual expenditure in mining as is now.

Absolutely HUGE! Vitalik confirms Metropolis discussions include reducing Empty Block Space bonuses from 14.75% -> 8% OR LESS! Don't know what the means? Video explains - (Vitalik source in comments) by Midnight_Discovery in ethtrader

[–]kybarnet -7 points-6 points  (0 children)

Yes.

Effectively the Ethereum Foundation will go from selling $8 Million Ethereum daily to pay for block chain security to $4.4 Million Ethereum.

Bitcoin pays $4.4 Million Bitcoin daily for security, at 4%. Ethereum will go from 14.75% -> 8% OR LESS.

(At $220 and $2,400)

Please help organize the Seth Rich Documents, timelines, and locations of friendly persons. by kybarnet in WikiLeaks

[–]kybarnet[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

96 - Lead journalists and resources (names)

dancing-turtle

https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiLeaks/comments/6mcenm/a_tale_of_two_chiefs_the_effects_of_dc_police/

A Tale of Two Chiefs: The effects of DC police chief turnover in 2016 on a high-profile murder investigation, based on in-depth exploration of media coverage

[Live Stream] Ethereum Core Developer Meeting #20 in 9 hours! by Souptacular in ethereum

[–]kybarnet 0 points1 point  (0 children)

There were contextual clues that I felt were sufficient definition.

Referring to ETH's as 14.75% and BTC at 4% informs the reader. It wasn't a word I used without context, accordingly. I frankly don't believe the confusion was as much as is claimed. I don't mind getting trolled, feigned ignorance by management is a bit frustrating. I would rather just have it said that the person was trolling, as a person becomes both the victim and the attacker in the current context.

Block Reward up until 6 months ago essentially only had 1 definition, and that was the BTC definition. Since then the market place has dramatically changed, and several new 'proof of stake' block chains have gained millions, and billions, in market cap (Dash, Tezos, ANS (NEO), so on). These are not PoS in the technical definition, but have the same economic effects, which creates are reaction

So educated persons are required to apply reasoning and logic to what they read. To Gen Public, they respond to trigger words like "proof of stake" and "block rewards" and "more miners!", etc.

This was a writing geared toward simply public understanding, with technical details added for clarity. No one is suggesting to reduce the transaction fees, which are a part of block reward, and creates public confusion in the the way they are used today, and was a topic that was largely irrelevant 6 months ago, thus the historical 'not giving a shit' about what the words actually mean.

Even in your google, there was no easily understood term that stood out, as it is poorly understood. It's sort of like calling it "global warming". It's not that people prefer the cold, it's the pollution and extinctions that become problematic to life. "Global pollution and mass extinction" is more objectionable than warmth, as it is more clear as to what you are rejecting.

I do not want to reduce block rewards, I would like to reduce the empty block bonuses only, as ETH blocks are significantly more full than they were 6 months ago.

There is no useful terminology because the discussion of the subject is not well understood.


Likewise, people refer to miners and believe they 'send the transactions' and thus think more miners = faster transactions. This is become there is insufficient historical context. Today, it should be called Hash Miners and Staked Miners. There is a term "Master Node", which means Staked Mining, but it should be understood that both "master nodes" and Miners are the same, and it should be more emphasized that adding Hash power does NOT speed up transactions.

That is excessively poorly understood, and is becoming an important part of block chain discussion.

[Live Stream] Ethereum Core Developer Meeting #20 in 9 hours! by Souptacular in ethereum

[–]kybarnet 0 points1 point  (0 children)

... Full disagreement there.

Is your claim that Bitcoin will have no block rewards in 2025?

People will still get paid for mining blocks, right? That's a reward.

Gen public is ignorant on cryptoeconomics. I am not 'inventing terms' I am defining the body as components of arms and legs.

Block rewards are comprised of two components that operate independently and counter each other. Transaction fees and Empty block bonuses. There are still block rewards when BTC no longer gives bonuses.

[Live Stream] Ethereum Core Developer Meeting #20 in 9 hours! by Souptacular in ethereum

[–]kybarnet 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Is there any consideration given toward a Staked Mining system in addition to pure hash?

If Metropolis introduced Staked Miners, I think that would make future negotiations much more in line with the developers. 7% puts us inline with BTC but if there is a sudden price hike, it will be difficult to reset.

I have thought of idea that goes like this (say 7% is fixed):

1.75% - Pure Hash Reward

1.75% - Double reward for Staked Hash Reward

3.5% - Random distribution to Staked Miner (master Node)


I suggest a Stake Level where the computer expense is trivial relative, such as maybe $50,000. Thus insuring all stakers can afford quality comp / connection.

I know this was discussed and dismissed when Market Cap was $500 Mil, but I think Staked Miners can provide significant block Chain assurance at this point.

While I have a major stake in ETH, and a powerful comp, I don't mine ETH cause I literally am paid not to do so. I would like to mine ETH :)

[Live Stream] Ethereum Core Developer Meeting #20 in 9 hours! by Souptacular in ethereum

[–]kybarnet 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Oh ok, sorry.

Sometimes this is referred to as 'block rewards' but that is ignorant. There are two rewards that oppose each other:

Transaction Fee (fullness) and Starter Bonuses (emptiness)

Likewise there are two type of miners that oppose each other:

Hash Miners and Staked Miners (or Nodes)

Staked Miners protect the asset, Hash miners devalue the asset. Dash is 50 / 50 staked Miners & Hash Miners. ANS / NEO & Tezos are also Staked Miners. Casper will be Staked Miners.

I won't go into all the details but ETH can move toward a 50 / 50 Staked miner payout with little technical adjustment but major economic benefits. I would personally prefer if they adjusted to the current market place, rather than the plan that was setup 6 months ago before the financial bomb.

It's an insanely important discussion that should be occurring regularly in the community and with the techs. It's billions and billions of importance.

[Live Stream] Ethereum Core Developer Meeting #20 in 9 hours! by Souptacular in ethereum

[–]kybarnet 2 points3 points  (0 children)

:) - I assumed you were just trolling, but felt I should take the reply seriously as I have the impression you are one of the key players in the community.

I would appreciate if billion dollar decisions - That can be fixed - were better received. Initiating the trolling, between top mods here, developers, and the mining community, does discourage sensible tech discussion.

I wish I could troll people when I spent billions of someone else money toward things that others buy at half the cost :/

[Live Stream] Ethereum Core Developer Meeting #20 in 9 hours! by Souptacular in ethereum

[–]kybarnet 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Thank you Vit for taking it seriously.

I hate to put you on the spot, but I got two similar concerns that I haven't seen addressed:

1) Can't the block reward be adjusted Aug 1st?

Metropolis / Technology can't be rushed, but updating the economic outputs can at anytime (well so long as you got the bomb). Wouldn't it make sense to adjust the economics while patiently waiting for the tech, must we suffer bad economics unnecessarily, or are there a lot of chefs cooking the pot that all must agree?

2) Proof of Stake / Casper / Master Nodes. Let's say Casper was 3 yrs delayed. Is there a plan to reduce empty rewards or move toward staked miners in the mean time?

Granted I know technological PoS / Validators 'can't be rushed' and I have no intention to. In the last 3 months, ETH paid ~$400 Million unnecessarily b/c Metropolis delays. However this does not have to be the case IMO if the economics are scaled in, like BTC (say), rather than tied to Tech discoveries. I'm extremely happy to pay $400 Mil toward programmers and people, I'm disheartened when it goes toward short term security at twice the expense of Bitcoin.

Thank you each for replying. Good luck on the call.

[Live Stream] Ethereum Core Developer Meeting #20 in 9 hours! by Souptacular in ethereum

[–]kybarnet -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Cryptoeconomics gets pretty complex. Vlad has some great videos on the subject.

Block chains are financially secured through transaction fees (when blocks are full) & Empty Block Space Rewards when they are not.

Bitcoin is at 4% or $1.6 Billion

Ethereum is at 14.75% or $3 Billion

Considering that ETH blocks are SIGNIFICANTLY more full than they were 4 months ago, it's likely a good idea to move incentives toward processing transactions.

It's really great stuff to learn about if you take the time. You'd love it Nick!

[Live Stream] Ethereum Core Developer Meeting #20 in 9 hours! by Souptacular in ethereum

[–]kybarnet 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Please discuss adjusting Empty Block Space Rewards to 8% or less vs 14.75%. Bitcoin pays out 4%, set in 2009. ETH pays 14.75%. Its WAY too much!!! Billions Too Many!!!

Take the strawpoll

I'm overall super happy with the ETH team. Sometimes technical and economic achievements collide. But it's absolutely insane to keep up with bad economics waiting on some technical miracle.

Adjust the economics of ETH toward lower deflation, and work on the technical discoveries in peace. By not making adjustments, ETH holders are paying billions more than Bitcoin which is somehow seen as an appropriate punishment for technological delays.

8% Or Less!

Former Haiti government official shoots himself in the head in Miami-area hotel - was scheduled to appear Tuesday before the Haitian Senate’s Ethics and Anti-Corruption Commission later that day by crawlingfasta in WikiLeaks

[–]kybarnet 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I wonder what the market is for political assassination these days.

Buy the fucking dip, I say :P

I would certainly type out my testimony immediately and give it to wikileaks as soon as I got called for a political case.

Yellen: I'm strongly opposed to audit the Fed (Wonder why?) by cmiovino in conspiracy

[–]kybarnet 0 points1 point  (0 children)

no doubt. The best mutual fund is likely limited to 25%. I can't imagine crypto making less :P

Yellen: I'm strongly opposed to audit the Fed (Wonder why?) by cmiovino in conspiracy

[–]kybarnet 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Likely good idea. 10% LTC 70% ETH 20% BTC.

LTC may explode in 2 months, or fizzle. Lightning network and all.

Yellen: I'm strongly opposed to audit the Fed (Wonder why?) by cmiovino in conspiracy

[–]kybarnet -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Ya, thank you friend.

Someone has got to go first and wear them out. Just consider me the crypto fodder :P

Makes you think though. People have mistaken impressions that civilizations advance. There have been 1,000 s of years of human advancement, likely ignored. Elon Musk has suggested 1 Million people to Mars by 2030. I sometimes think there may come a cataclysmic shift in planetary intellect that makes this possible, which he has foreseen.