Do the hosts of RadioLab not research the people they are interviewing or the topic?
Why didn't you research stereotypes of Black women in American culture? Why didn't you guys do just a LIL digging into white standardized ideas of "beauty" and "grace"? Serena Williams was brought up and most everyone knows how poorly the tennis world has treated her and her sister and everyone knows WHY. Racism. Calling Surya Bonaly "exotic", "not graceful", "too athletic" are all code and that is information EASILY looked up on the internet. Then to top it all off, for the host not to know that the move Surya is most famous for, her back flip landing on one foot, was not named after her??? Like, at least TRY.

As a WoC myself, I REALLY hope you fools just stop covering things that even might have to do with racism. This is the 2nd time you have completely showed your asses.

The inaccuracies in this episode are appalling. I'm actually very upset about this episode.

This is my favorite podcast but this story was majorly disappointing. Clearly WNYC does not understand the art of Figure Skating. Stick to the world of science and technology, guys.

What a fantastic and inspiring story. I applaud Ms Bonaly for her determination. I think her backflip was an empowering and irreverent show of spirit. How incredibly sad that she faced such insurmountable prejudice throughout her career.

This is it for me. I've been listening to Radiolab since the beginning, but after Robert's racist tirades at people who had generously given time and interviews several years ago, I stopped my donations. I continued to listen even as the show shifted from an amazing podcast about science to a mediocre podcast about...something.
The decision to allow Robert to provide commentary on an episode about race is the most baffling decision you've made yet, given his history. It's become clear that this isn't an issue of him rubbing me wrong on some topics. The staff at Radiolab CHOSES to allow him to add his childish, all-or-nothing views on the topic of race despite his history, and that's baffling.
Goodbye Radiolab, I will miss you.

At the opening where it says imagine what the official people think is good isn't what you think is good. Made me think of what the state dept of education thinks is a good teacher vs what teachers think is a good teacher.

This episode would have been a fantastic opportunity to discuss colorblind racism. For example, even though she hadn't been recognized for her talent multiple times, she gets upset once and she's a sore loser and "defiant" (aka an angry black woman). She's described as "raw" talent (unrefined, uncivilized).

These same situations happen to black women in other sports, like Misty Copeland (she doesn't have the "right body" for ballet) or Serena Williams (people are always accusing her of using steroids).

In any competition that is judged, the will always be the spectre of bias, whether conscious or unconscious. The adage "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" is testimony to that bias... If your are judging someone that grates against your natural bias, it's not surprising to see a slightly lower grade.

"What Would You Do?", and other candid camera situational reality shows have documented people calling police on minority teens 'acting suspicious', and giving white teens a pass performing the same acts. It's documented. It's true. It's human nature.

As Surya Bonaly made changes to her style, the same judging community who graded her in the past, is now expected to grade her with open eyes and a clean slate.
Not likely, unless...

UNLESS folks take deliberate and direct steps to uncover there sub-conscious biases and address them,
UNLESS people learn to recognize situations and occurrences when they react based on bias vs facts.

This is also the problem when you are to much in advence !
And I know this for a fact!

Tom Shanon
Artist and pro skater
THE SECRET OF PROS

I just want to let you know i love the podcast, i've been listen it for about 3 months now, i've been catching up with all the old podcasts and it's always really inspiring and exciting to see there's a new episode online. I hope my monthly donation, even that it's pretty small, will help a bit in keeping this awesome experience going on. Sorry if my grammar isn't very good, greetings and a lot of thanks from a big fan in México. Thank you for such great moments that you share with us.

Steve Rushin's editorial, "Beautiful Games," in the 5.2.2016 issue of Sports Illustrated said it best. All sports contain an element of beauty. When you come right down to it, why do we love to see a well-executed double play? A slam dunk? A triple Axel? Because there's beauty in the execution that those same moves don't have when they are messy; they may get the job done, but they simply aren't as pleasing to the eye.

Rushin asks, "What is the primary purpose of sports, even … at its highest level? Is it to win? Or is it to perform as beautifully as one can--and in doing so, to shine a light on what it means to be human?"

RadioLab's piece on Surya Bonaly was poorly researched--poorly "executed" if you will--and, as a result, led to many of the questions listed in the comments. (Yes, correct edges count in skating, and scientific research, as well as empirical observation, confirms that they produce a sound different from that of blades skated on the flat. No, back flips don't count in competition, and Scott Hamilton did his in exhibitions. And yes, there are black skaters, from the present and the past, who should have been included.) Surya's skating was fun to watch, but her execution was poor, a factor that not only detracted from her scores, but, I would assert, diminished the beauty of her programs--not her color, not her body type (there are plenty of powerful, muscular female skaters), but her execution. A "flutz" is not as pleasing to the eye as crisp Lutz, flowing naturally from a clean back outside edge.

But RadioLab's piece did answer the third of Rushin's questions. It did give us an idea of what Surya Bonaly's perspective is--what it feels like to be Surya Bonaly. We always benefit when we take the opportunity to walk in somebody else's shoes--or skate in their skates.

I remember watching these competitions and being entranced by Surya Bonaly and being baffled by the commentators and judges.

I cannot remember when this practice stopped, but figure skaters actually had to perform a short program, a long program, AND skate figures. The score on each skater's figures were included in the final score to determining who won. If the judges & figure skating world want to include the sound a skater makes when skating and whether the skater is "circley" enough, then the scoring of skating the figures needs to be added back in. Otherwise, the sound and how rounded a skater enters or leaves jumps should be disregarded.

Loved the piece! It was a surprisingly interesting story and I've been watching ice skating tonight with my friends, comparing styles, because of it.

I want to comment on the conclusion. When asked "Did she make an impact on the ice skating world" the first answer was "No, there's the same amount of black people ice skating" I was completely thrown by that answer. The whole segment was about how different her style was and about the dilemma between athleticism and artistry, and in the end you focus on race? About whether she, with her skin colour, had an impact on the amount of black people who ice skated? Not whether she changed the rules that worked against her, whether the weight between aesthetics and gymnast moves got moved, whether her style inspired new, other ice skaters and you see part of her moves today. No, her potential impact boils down to race? That seems so out of place of the rest of your program. I'm glad you dug a bit deeper and let us know that she did make an impact with her style, in that they changed the scoring system. That's huge!

Thank you for your great work.

Loved the piece! It was a surprisingly interesting story and I've been watching ice skating tonight with my friends, comparing styles, because of it.

I want to comment on the conclusion. When asked "Did she make an impact on the ice skating world" the first answer was "No, there's the same amount of black people ice skating" I was completely thrown by that answer. The whole segment was about how different her style was and about the dilemma between athleticism and artistry, and in the end you focus on race? About whether she, with her skin colour, had an impact on the amount of black people who ice skated? Not whether she changed the rules that worked against her, whether the weight between aesthetics and gymnast moves got moved, whether her style inspired new, other ice skaters and you see part of her moves today. No, her potential impact boils down to race? That seems so out of place of the rest of your program. I'm glad you dug a bit deeper and let us know that she did make an impact with her style, in that they changed the scoring system. That's huge!

Thank you for your great work.

Glad you all agreedThe athlete was robbed. I don't ever watch the olympics, juicing and judges fixing pairs skating. You look for the many ways she was in the wrong I think you need to look at the institution, the Olympics.

Is there a list of music credits somewhere?

What's the crazy jazz piece?

Stay cucked.

I loved watching her!! She was a breath of fresh air to a sport where every jump and turn looked the same. She was exciting! I loved watching her spring load the moves. Every twist turn and advance spoke of confidence. I recently had my daughter (14 competive skier, Junior Olympic finalist 2016) watch Surya's Olympic performance. My daughter was awed. She asked if Surya won. I said no, the fall and semi illegal move cost her. My daughter said "but she won the hearts of the people, right?" Amen little girl. Sometimes a gold medal or a first place goes simply to the person who made the least amount of mistakes. The heart of the people is always awarded to the real athlete. Surya will always be the greatest figure skater of all time.

Isn't this the same story/wording used to describe any black athlete in a primarily white sport? This is still happening today when referring to black quarterbacks (Russel Wilson) vs. white quarterbacks (name any Manning).

I was also wondering about Scott Hamilton and his backflips. It's been many years since I've watched ice skating (quite possibly since 1994) but all I can remember is back flip after back flip. Is my memory mistaken or are these just Olympic rules?

Thank you for this lovely story. I am not a figure skater, I was one of those fans enraptured by Surya Bonaly. I watched her perform whenever I could. I never knew what happened to her. I am very pleased that you all are telling her story! What an amazing person she is.

Thank you Bob Gnarley !

I loved hearing Surya's story. Thank you Radiolab for sharing it in such a frank, unbiased manner. I think it made Surya and her story all the more compelling.

Great start to my day!

So did Scott Hamilton get dinged when he did backflips? I don't think he landed on one skate either.

I appreciated how you guys went back in and added in clips of the sound of blades hitting the ice. That was a nice touch. ;)

Thank you for making me remember Surya. And, FWIW, before I listened to the podcast, I clicked on your FB link to the backflip routine -- and as I watched it in its entirety I said out loud, "wow, she was a lot like Tonya -- all power and no artistry." Easier to see now from the vantage point of time.

Where oh where is that sequel to CRISPR?

Serena has been the victim of some of the most biased, unfair umping and line calling I've ever seen. It's amazing how much racism she has had to endure. I'm not exactly a fan of Serena, but she is the GOAT of women's tennis, and part of me is amazed by how she hasn't let the racism and criticism she's experienced her whole career destroy her emotionally. Lucky for Serena, in tennis, even if the ump is trying to hose her, she can elevate her game and still win by hitting inside the lines. In skating, this girl was not as lucky. If tennis matches were party determined by artistic merit points, Serena would be a footnote in history.

Audience - Think for yourself!
I don't disagree with the comments about race and there is plenty there to comment on. But consider resisting being the victim of the intended narrative of this story or any other story/experience you have and open yourself up to other observations and interpretation beyond the obvious. For instance I would agree using the platform of a privileged athlete in an elite sport was thin. I mean how bad is it? Gosh she voluntarily moved from France to California to train full time with a professional coach to develop "grace" to impress 9 judges in an archaic and arbitrary scoring system. Boo hoo? Here's what I'm fascinated with....What about the fact that this gifted young women does in fact overcome amazing obstacles including race and false stories about being fed bird seed!(Awesome!) Submitting herself to a grueling process that requires endless criticism. To create a mental and physical toughness to adapt to a culture of "never settle". To develop an emotional state that allows her to pursue the the myth of perfection. And then....... we're pissed about her unwillingness to accept second 10 minutes! (or whatever) after a dedicated practice to "no compromise". Fascinating! Thanks Radiolab for keeping us all thinking, because it's not black and white.

Why not aply science to the judges and commentators claims? They say the skate edge sound is different. You find someone to Analyze it. Using science. They say she skates straight and without great circles. Analyze that. Geometry. All of the performances are available in video with sound. It's been decades. That would be radiolab bringing its science to social issues.

I think the episode started off with the right intention, but landed on the wrong note. I am very, very, disappointed with the way it ended up characterising this story as a race issue. As an avid figure skate fun (BTW, I am a person of colour, just to get it out of the way), and the one that watched this story unfold in real time, I tell you the issue was deep but color-less. Note that the winner, Yuka Sato, is not even white. Figure skate was, and still is a sport struggling to find the identity, like athleticism or grace; subjective impression or objective count? Competitors on the side of athleticism, like Surya Bonaly and Midori Ito was definitely a minority, but nobody could deny that the way they fly through the air and leaps off the ground was just as beautiful and breathtaking as the way Katrina Witt or Kristi Yamaguchi gracefully glides and spins like angels on the ice. The question is "what is a beauty? And what if your beauty was different from everybody else's version of a beauty?" Today's generation of athletes are both strong and graceful, and have seemingly made the question obsolete. However, such human quest never stops. I think it is a matter of time somebody will once again re-defines the beauty and confront us with the same question.

Great story. I like Jad and Robert. I can tell Robert has a big heart, but when he questioned whether Surya was being a sore loser by standing next to the podium during the World Championships it made me cringe. Robert, and I, are white guys. We don't know what it's like being black, and sadly from other podcasts (like Hidden Brain's airbnbwhileblack) and seeing the result of endemic racism in many of our institutions (e.g., some police departments), I am amazed so many black folks like Surya show such stamina to plow on and such grace in the face of all this. Sad and amazing. We need to do better, and podcasts like this help us.

So I'm going to attempt to explain WHY people are annoyed by the fact that many of the more recent Radiolab shows are about life experience type issues (i.e. race, babies, etc.).

First off, the original few dozens of episodes had a very scientific element and seemed to be based in an overall scientific idea, explored using philosophy and telling human stories within that scientific outline. Many of us came to expect the big scientific idea as the basis for each episode and explored by telling different aspects on a philosophical and human level. In fact, if you look at the "http://www.radiolab.org/about/" link you can see that the show is described in exactly those terms:

"Radiolab is a show about curiosity. Where sound illuminates ideas, and the boundaries blur between science, philosophy, and human experience."

We've been missing that science based element as of late, although the multi-cellular show was pretty decent...I'll give them credit for that. But even on Radiolab's about page I count the word "science" used 15 times, philosophy used 2 times, human experience used once.

Many of us would like to see Radiolab get away from the episodes being completely enveloped by social issues and get back to it's scientific roots. There are plenty of podcasts that focus in on that human experience (with little to no scientific angle/element) so let those podcasts do those shows and get Radiolab back to the science!

I found this episode more enjoyable than the Debatable episode but in the end I was wondering why this was a "Radiolab" episode...there was zero science element, there wasn't even much of a philosophical angle (which you could say did exist in the "Debatable" episode)...just a human experience story, very well told but why did Radiolab need to tell this story???

Anyway, just my 2 cents...I hope to hear more science based episodes in the future; I really do enjoy the work everyone does over there at Radiolab!

I'm sorely disappointed that you did not interview other black skaters and get their perspectives on racism in figure skating. They are a minority but by no means limited to Bonaly. Debbie Thomas, Derrick Delmore, Rohene Ward, Berenice Mae Meite (French), or Asher Hill (Canadian) are all easily reachable.

I thoroughly enjoyed the content of this episode but felt disappointed that you interviewed Tanya Harding. Her own history of poor choices gave her little credibility on this story.

I really enjoyed this episode!!

I doubt race had much to do with her score--she was terrible artistically. All she had was a bunch of (admittedly incredible) jumps but her routines were disjointed otherwise.

With that, she still WON 5 European Championships. How do you point to racism when she was given that gold medal 5 times?

Thank you Radiolab! I thought the story was interesting, well thought-out, well-researched, and fun. I thought the topic of race was relevant and not something we get to hear skater's like Surya Bonaly talk about much even though it may in fact have an impact on their lives as figure skaters. Thank you for finding professionals in the figure skating world to provide commentary and thank you for sharing this story!

I am a huge figure skating fan and have always enjoyed watching Surya Bonaly skate. While she may not have changed figure skating as we know it, she did make an impact on the sport. I know, from seeing her in ice shows through the years, that she is a fan favorite. I loved watching her throw back flips around, and once witnessed her complete 3 Bonaly backflips in one show! Mostly though, I enjoyed watching her skate with joy. I am so happy to find out what she has been up to.

Crulwitch is a bit hard on someone who did not get the attention she deserved. race card is always clear in the skating scene since it has been dominantly a white sport (ha). there will be critics, there will be die hard fans. i feel for Surya. She deserves the gold now even if she does not skate anymore..

I really enjoyed this episode. Thank you!

The experience you were describing regarding race in you story "On the Edge" is called Critical Race Theory, and could be an episode unto itself.

This was a great episode and in line with the type of programming I've come to expect from Radiolab. I don't understand why people are so up in arms about the race issue. Many of the listeners who listen to Radiolab understand the nuances of racism and race reporting and can respect the differences between the two; that understanding seems to elude most of the critics on this comment board.

Anyway, it's great to hear Surya's side of the story. That audible gasp from the crowd during her Olympic program is the stuff of legend!

What was the point of this episode? That racism exists in figure skating. Yes. That nonconformists should be accommodated? Huh?

During the years when Bonaly was skating, I was a diehard figure skating fan. I watched every single broadcast (no easy thing at the time: they were usually hidden on Saturday afternoon and Sunday morning sports shows). And I remember Bonaly.

First, figure skating has always been a mix of grace, style and athleticism. Sometimes one or the other factor is dominant, and the "new" scoring system tries to better balance the technical and artistic elements but the very best skaters, the ones that both judges and fans applaud, are those who excel as both artists and athletes.

The subtext of your show on Bonaly was that she lost because she was Black. I won't deny that she faced racial attacks while she was on the circuit. But she was NOT a good all-around skater. I don't know about the sound of the edges on the ice, but, while she skated powerfully & had some good jumps, she skated in a straight line, she didn't know what to do with her arms, and her choreography and choice of music were downright awful. She did get better but she never, ever reached the heights of the best.

She was not the only powerful, technical skater to be penalized for a lack of grace on the ice. I remember a young skater (I don't know if this was before or after Bonaly's time). She was brilliant technically. I think she landed 5 triples or something equally impressive. And she won. But all she had were the jumps. She was not as inept stylistically as Bonaly, but she was definitely inferior artistically. I remember many conversations (there was no Facebook or Twitter) about how wrong the judges were to have ranked her technical skill over her artistic abilities.

Tonya Harding had the same problem: she was better technically than artistically.

Elvis Stojko also suffered because of a lack of artistry on the ice. In his case, however, many of us came to believe the judges were unfair. Initially, he had only "power" and was marked accordingly. But over the years, he created a muscular style of skating that fit his body and his skills. He chose music and choreography that matched. The judges, in my opinion, never forgot the early Stojko and didn't realize that his style, while different, was still a fully-realized style. Bonaly never, ever reached that stage.

Bonaly chose to enter a sports activity that values grace and athleticism. She succeeded to a large degree with the latter but, although she improved substantially over the years, never achieved a similar degree of competence on the artistic side.

Figure skating is ballet on ice. Classical dancers are expected to leap and lift and twirl with enormous skill, but they are also expected to hold their arms and their backs and their legs in certain positions. Those are the rules of the game.

It becomes tiresome when people (specifically the female on the podcast) claim racial bias just because a person involved has different colored skin than another person. I doubt Surya's struggles in ice skating had anything to do with her skin color, rather it was because she skated differently than what the skating establishment was used to. Skating is a subjective sport and the judges were scoring based on a set of criteria, albeit one that I think is crap, and she didn't fulfill those criteria. Do I believe the judges and the profession of skating need to change, yes. But when you enter a sport, you need to play by the rules in order to win, even if those rules are out of date.

I have to agree with some of the comments here: I think the question of race may have been a bit overblown in this show. I watched a clip of the 1998 Olympics and while Surya Bonaly is obviously an exceptional skater, her physique makes it hard for her to be a dainty ice queen. But overall, the show was vintage Radiolab and I thoroughly enjoyed it!

Just want to chime in and voice my appreciation for this material. I can imagine that the producers at Radiolab knew that this choice of subject would draw ire in the comments section, but bravo on making a great choice. It's a fascinating story and I would like to hear more about this sort of thing with published research to back it up (this is a science podcast, after all).

Debi Thomas is black and medaled at the Olympics 4 years before Bonaly's first games. Tennis players are judged on wins and losses; consequently, I've personally only heard praise heaped upon Serena Williams given that she consistently dominates. As such, I don't understand why Radiolab felt that it was accurate to compare Serena's experience with Bonaly's. Further, it's perplexing and disappointing that Radiolab would make such a charged, pointed, and loaded comment without citing sources. Bad form, bad form indeed.

For those of you missing the science, search on 'BBC 5 Live Science podcasts', especially the Dr Karl version on alternate weeks.

I have to agree with some of the comments here: I think the question of race may have been a bit overblown in this show. I watched a clip of the 1998 Olympics and while Surya Bonaly is obviously an exceptional skater, her physique makes it hard for her to be a dainty ice queen. But overall, the show was vintage Radiolab and I thoroughly enjoyed it!

One of the best shows! And despite all of the negative comments, thank you for being well rounded and not being afraid to explore all topics and audiences. Thanks for talking about race and discrimination of all types, whether people want to embrace change or not. GOOD JOB!!

What's the violin track being played at around 6 minutes?

Radiolab, you are beginning to disappoint me. Over the last few episodes you have been devolving. This whole episode was a non-story. Remove all references to Surya's race from the episode, and what do you get? A story of a skater who worked very hard to compete at an international level. A skater who was criticized for some aspects of her style. A skater who came in second in several competitions. At the 1994 World Championship you see a skater who acted unsportsmanlike, ungracious, taking away the spotlight away from the other participants. At the 1998 Winter Olympics you see a skater flouting the tradition of skating to server her own personal agenda. I do not see a story worthy to be retold to an audience here. There's nothing to be learned from this experience. The skater doesn't demonstrate a behavior that goes above and beyond what other skaters at that level do. On the contrary, the unsportsmanlike conduct would deter anyone from retelling the story. But, Radiolab felt otherwise. Very disappointing.

I grew up when Bonaly was skating. I take exception to the view that it was her race that kept her from winning. It was her complete lack of artistry. She was a robot that (very awkwardly) spinned and jumped. The winners were far ahead of her in those regards, along with the artistry portion.

She deserved the scores she got.

I too was disappointed with this show. Not because of the explorations of race and identity - but because the central concepts, both the, i guess, traditional skating and the, as you say, middle-finger, back flip we're not really not radio material. Most of the program seemed to struggle with needing to *see* what exactly was happening to really comprehend the inner story.

After reading some of the comments, I just had to add: I loved your resident's, I'm sorry I've forgotten her name, commentary and clearly this was a show she played a major role in. It would have been nice for you guys to set that up at the top of show. I think, and I see here, a lot of people who turn to your show for Science-themed material being upset by you straying from the theme. Here and with the debate show I feel as if you're kind of bringing up these issues of race in the context of systems that are depicted as being, perhaps not consciously biased. All wonderful stuff... but, in both cases you leave the black protagonists of the show having an emotional freakout that I'm afraid comes off as more temper tantrum than defiance.(Radiolab frames it this way!) I feel like your making parallels to the science community, and trolling your listeners to help them realize how a lack of diversity in another, rule centric culture (that of academic scientists) and the fact the central figures of the show 'win' by basically losing their shit (the trance-like finale of the debater and the skater being dragged to the podium) - is setting them up to be dismissed by the aforementioned science enthusiast. What's going on here? Surely there's many stories of similar situations where a person of color has been in the same shitty situation and overcome in a way that doesn't allow your Vulcan-spectrum type listeners to say things like it's 'less-engaging version of snap judgement' (eeek! wow - that's eerily close to 'stop jumping around and learn to skate'). Not science, not important.

This is all to say - please do another show about race bias in the science community itself and then help your listeners understand what I think you're getting at here. How does identity play into what is a fact based discipline. And where does that leave those facts? You're being too subtle with a topic I think is super important. More please.

I did a double take when I heard Surya's name. Is this about....yes, yes it is.
For whatever it is worth, I am a good 'ole southern boy that loves to watch football among other sports. I don't know anything about skating.
One day long ago I passed by a TV while doing house work waiting to watch a football game and saw Surya and I ended up watching her routine. From then on I looked at every skating program that came on to see if she was on it and would flick over to watch her. I found her actions exciting where the others not so much, but I did watch a few entire programs she was in.
I quickly grew tired of the judging as it looked just as slimy as boxing. I started watching up until Surya's last routine and then turning the TV off and doing other things.
I remember yelling at the TV right after that backflip and when she finished with her back to the judges, something I would normally do while I was watching football. My girlfriend gave me an odd look and I had to explain the situation that had built up over the years - lol!
When Surya was done skating I was done with it too. Good to hear her voice and the podcast was a nice surprise during my morning drive. Thank you!

This is the third of the last three episodes of radiolab that has had some sort of focus on race. Enough already! I tune into you guys for thoughtful science pieces mixed in with psychology... maybe social commentary once in a while. What is this white guilt garbage...?! Please create a separate podcast for race-bait pieces of shit like this. Ugh... Stop it already!

I can see the through-line between this episode and "Debatable." But I have to agree with the person who said the presence of Tonya Harding turned my stomach. Surya's a class act who realized that if she couldn't win, she was going to dazzle the crowd anyway with an "illegal" move. Tonya Harding, on the other hand, resorted to some REAL illegalities and got her boyfriend to try and eliminate her competition.

Disappointed- I've been a skating coach for over 35 years, and a Radiolab junkie for 5. Surya simply did not take off of the correct edge (which is a curve) or land on a correct edge much of the time. There are 32 different one foot turns in figure skating, and 32 turns from one to the other foot. The simple math is Surya didn't master those basic turns enough to to make it look effortless. Being an athlete and making it look effortless and beautiful IS the magic of figure skating, like it or leave it. I tell my students that ALL the time. This was not about race, (no mention of Champion Debbie Thomas?) why only mention Surya? Why now? What about the Russians being racist against Americans? What about the French judge? The sport has changed dramatically since then, this is old news with a racist slant and I'm disappointed with Radiolab.

Thank you for this great episode.

Is Debi Thomas forgotten? She was a former world champion, and bronze medallist at the Olympic games. And Harding gets mentioned! Really crime seems to pay off, when a world champion is forgotten and a criminal gets publicity .
Otherwise, I enjoyed the pod cast.
But , you tell me, you talk about figure skating and skin colour and no mention of Debi Thomas? Why is that?

Thanks so much for telling this story or rather, telling me about this person
and her amazing achievements, and her challenges. I think this makes her
even more notable and heroic ....

HOWEVER, I really could have done without the commentary, no matter
how relevant from Tonya Harding ... which really turned my stomach. Maybe
I am in the minority of your audience that happens to remember Harding's
part in the despicable assault on Nancy Kerrigan ...

From Wikipedia:
+ Harding avoided further prosecution and a possible jail sentence by
+ pleading guilty on March 16 to conspiring to hinder prosecution of
+ the attackers.[19] She received three years probation, 500 hours of
+ community service, and a $160,000 fine.

This was from 1995 ... 21 years ago, but still, it was totally against
everything sportsmanlike and civilized. Booooo!

The irony here is that Surya failed the "artistry" portion of the skating competition because figure skating is a sport and not an art. The execution of a sport requires the completion of rote activities to perfection. Surya had tremendous talent and her own style, which made her fascinating to the audience but obnoxious to the judges. Really, the phrase "artistic expression" has no place in Olympic figure skating because personal expression is explicitly forbidden.

Surya was a star, no doubt about it. As an avid figure skating fan, I can tell you that she was always entertaining. However, I don't believe her placements were ever controversial. Sandra Bezic was spot on. This was not about race. This was about her lack of quality in basic skating skills...edges...etc. That is not an aesthetic. That is core technique that she never addressed. Even her 98 Olympic program was just the same recycled program from 94. She brought a lot of personality to the sport and was a great personality to follow (although not as a role model...) Sad that this was about racism in skating...especially when there was ZERO mention of DEBI THOMAS! A marvelous African American skater who was winning the world championships in the 80s and was the Olympic Bronze Medalist. I do appreciate the attention to figure skating though and believe that you did some great research and found some really expert people to talk to..ie Sandra Bezic! :)

I listened to this story on Itunes, and came here specifically to leave a comment. I love this woman , and I love this story. I had never heard of Surya Bpnaly before this podcast, but immediately felt her pain after hearing her story. The podcast absolutely nailed it when they were talking about never really being sure as to whether or not you're being snubbed as a person of African descent. As an African-American, I go through this uncertainty often.

After listening to the podcast, I immediately went to YouTube and looked up Surya clips to see for myself how she actually performed. Although I'm not a figure-skating aficionado, as impressive and strong skater as she is, I personally found that she did often lack the grace that most might expect from figure-skaters. However, that did no diminish the question mark, as to whether she was ever snubbed, or looked over because of here race. The world is a funny place sometimes.Good job guys!

Sometimes being daring is the right thing to do.

I think a lot of fellow listeners felt as Robert did at the end of this episode: who cares? More specifically, why do we as RadioLab listeners care about this story? Racism in figure skating is an important topic, but what does it have to do with science? Leave stories like this to This American Life, and bring back science to RadioLab!

I think a lot of fellow listeners felt as Robert did at the end of this episode: who cares? More specifically, why do we as RadioLab listeners care about this story? Racism in figure skating is an important topic, but what does it have to do with science? Leave stories like this to This American Life, and bring back science to RadioLab!

Radiolab.... are you guys race bating? I enjoy the science shows the best, and love the human interest ones too, but recently... I really don't know. I know NPR loves to broadcast stories about minorities (especially gay ones) but some of use are getting a little fatigued. There are so many interesting stories about all cultures that do not have to be painted as racist. Ugh, I really expected more from you guys. Do a story on Bronies in the Bronx and be done with it and go back to the Science stories please!

What an incredible story that was surrounded by condescending laughs and ignorance of the commentators. Racism is in no way funny and if you can't seem to comprehend it I can share a laundry list of books for you to read to try to understand it. This is not the first time Robert Krulwich has asked multiple questions that display his blindness as a majority member of society. I hope that after the episodes air that they are listen to on repeat to find some understanding of where comments similar to mind are coming from. Debatable is another episode I was just cringing in.
Very disappointing as a minority listener.

I felt ashamed while I listened to this podcast in a car full of my coworkers. It was quite disgusting how the guest and the hosts both laughed at the potential racism that Surya Bonaly was experiencing. Yeah, it's pretty funny that "Black people can go crazy from racism".Hilarious, isn't it? Would they have laughed if this was a story about a gay/trans person who was discriminated against? Would they giggle as much if someone was to say "Gay people go crazy from discrimination"? Or would they discuss how utterly tragic that is? How the prevalence of discrimination in a society disrupts lives. What does this say about the hosts? People who laugh at potential racism are perhaps.....

i've never liked skating for many of the reasons listed in the episode. the subjective judging and the tendency of judges' personal biases to influence scores has always seems stupid to me. If a contestant is going to put that much effort into a competition the least the competition owes them is a fair evaluation.

I believe that there is a strong case that Ms. Bonaly was scored unfairly because she was black. I think that is an important case to make. I also think that when the reporter says "... we axed her why..." (time stamp ~15:55) it makes it easy for people to dismiss the argument.

I was disappointed with this show. What is the relevance of this story at this very moment? It appears that you guys are airing this story as a filler, just because you couldn't come up with anything else to air. Yes, the Olympics are scheduled for later this year, but not the Winter Olympics. So...why now?

Also, this is the only Radiolab story where it felt like...you weren't moving along. Several times during the podcast I felt a lot of impatience and felt like yelling out, "OK, folks move on...to the meat!". Again, not only was the story a filler, but it was filled with fillers that could and should've been edited.

Fillers-squared.

The Professional Skater Magazine's current issue (March/April 2016, No. 2) has an article about the Figure Skating in Harlem program. FSH has been in existence for nearly 20 years. The program has 60 staff members and 250 skaters--with more on a waiting list--from Harlem and the Bronx. In addition to skating, the skaters attend classes in nutrition, financial literacy, and public speaking and can get help with school work. The program is growing and hopes to open branches in cities such as Detroit. Check it out!

Ok, im disappointed in RadioLab. They have devolved from science to racist conjecture. I use to enjoy this show alot because of the adventure, science, and curiosity. Now RadioLab is a frail skelaton of its old self. If we are going to consistently talk about Race count me out. We want to have a healthy discussion in an episode every now and then, lets do it. But by my count out of the last 3 episodes 2 have been raced based. I listen to this show to learn new things, not to be force fed more white shame.

Wow. The sensitive nerves have definitely been pinged with this episode. Take a deep breath, people, then let it out slowly. I enjoyed the episode, as a listener, figure skater, and figure skating fan.

There's so much that could be expanded on here — It would require two more episodes, at least, I think, just to cover the subject of race in figure skating.

Firstly, the comment about Debi Thomas' successes not being mentioned is a valid one. Her path wasn't easy, either, but her skating style was also very different from Suraly Bonaly's as well. The history of the 6.0 scoring system is long and complicated, but because of open judging (where a skater's scores were shown immediately post-performance, instead of after all competitors in the group had skated) created a situation where judges had to "leave room" in their scoring for subsequent superior performances. Skaters basically had to earn their way to the judges' trust and good opinions with a history of competitive performances. To spectators and skaters alike, this was very frustrating and at times incomprehensible. The new system takes pressure off the judges to contort scores and allows them to score the performance in front of them.

Secondly (and lastly), I heartily second Parrison802's comment that a look be given to Figure Skating in Harlem. It is an amazing and effective program that deserves more recognition. Readers and Radiolab alike should check out the work FSH does.

Loved this and the last episode!!! Me and my friends will all be donating. Keep them coming

I love the more multicultural Radiolab! This and the K-pop story really show amazing stories out of white America! After a 9 month hiatus from your mostly white, male, urban and American show, I am back to listening and back to donating. Kudos!

Sorry everyone! First a long post, and now an addition! But I've been thinking about this episode while doing chores and find I must return to it.
It does seem odd that RadioLab would chose to do a show on a story that's nearly 20 years old. I was very interested in listening to it--in fact, I had recently wondered what Surya Bonaly is doing nowadays. But I think her story has to be given in context. She was competing at the time when many fans were worried that the sport was under threat; they were afraid that it would become "gymnastics on ice," emphasizing the number of rotations in the jumps, de-emphasizing spins, connective footwork, musicality. What makes figure skating figure skating is the equipment--you do it while wearing leather boots and blades with edges. If you skate in a way that doesn't take advantage of the edges, well, it's like the difference between tap dancing and ballet. They are both terrific forms of dance, but they are different from one another because tap shoes and pointe shoes function differently and create different effects. Surya's skating represented all of the things that traditionalists were worried about. In order to do her story justice, the reporters would have to trace the history of figures, talk about developments in boot and blade design, and compare her career to someone like Philippe Candeloro, a contemporary French skater whom the crowds loved and the judges not so much.
But that's an old story. I'd suggest doing a story on the Figure Skating Club of Harlem--cool, fun, vibrant, and now.

As I figure skater, I do worry that figure skating is a very "white" sport, but I think this story was given without sufficient context. If the story was about racism in figure skating, the reporters needed to speak to other black skaters, such as two-time U.S. Champion and 1986 World Champion Debi Thomas and French pairs skater Vanessa James, who competed in the 2010 Olympics. They needed to compare the experience of black skaters with that of black athletes in comparable sports, such as gymnastics.

If the story was about the perceived unfairness of judging in figure skating, the reporters needed to provide even more information. Figure skating is, like gymnastics, diving, and dressage, a subjective sport, and artistry counts. As another listener pointed out, under the 6.0 system, the artistic score, not the technical score, was the tie breaker, and a clean program could beat a technically more difficult program skated with mistakes, because mistakes detract from the artistic impression. Furthermore, under both the old and current judging systems, the judges must judge what they see, mistakes and all. For instance, jumps are defined by the take-off and landing edges, and Surya's edges were pretty funky. Sandra Bezic was 100% correct; if you spend time at a rink, you can hear the difference!

So now I've listened to two radiolab podcasts (debating and skating) where America somehow makes everything about racism or an apology for it. No wonder you lead the world at it.

Life-long fan of figure skating. Ladies figure skating is based on the ballet image of dance. A super-thin body, extension, willowy arm thing, - hyper femnimity. Like ballerinas who grow hips, skaters with musculature and short limbs are not welcome. Would a white skater with Surya's frame have been more succesful. I doubt it. Other dance forms - modern, broadway, folk - accept different types of bodies. It would be interesting to see how an athletic type with great movement would do in skating.

This episode troubled me--condescending. The racism displayed by the commentators is troubling and disgusting.

Skating might be beautiful, and lots of people might love it, but it is not a sport. Eliminate the competitive part and none of this matters.

It seems to me that a good way of looking at this is that the skating world was listening to Vivaldi, and Surya was playing Jazz.

In addition to getting the year and event incorrect as I pointed out in my previous comment, the reporters failed to note that Surya Bonaly had a two-footed landing in one of her jumps, she put her hand down in another, and in a triple-triple jump she had an off landing. Also, as one of the commentators notes, the quality of her skating is just not there. She does not have the speed nor the artistry that Yuka Sato demonstrated in her near-flawless performance. In the event of a tie in this older system of judging, the tie-breaker is the artistic impression mark. I think the reporter(s) need to watch the videos of the two performances; I find it hard to believe that they are at all familiar with this actual event.

The events you describe in this episode happened at the 1994 World Figure Skating Championships in Chiba, Japan, not at the 1998 Olympic games in Nagano, Japan.

Best Episode ever. If only because all the youtube commenters are coming out of the woodwork and losing their minds because someone shone a torchlight on their roach motel of subtle racism.

This was a sub-par episode for you guys. You made references to racism that were not supported along with chastising a sport that you admittedly have no knowledge of. I don't understand the point of it. Was it that ice skaters back flipping is impressive? No one would argue that. I'm being harsh but my point is that I expect more from you guys.

I think the French Federation shoulders some of the blame here. Remember, she went to work with Frank Carroll, Lake Arrowhead CA, but was summoned back to France and didn't really get a chance to work the subtlies that the judges and skating purist wanted at that time from her. It was a case of the French Federation saying, you are so popular, we want you to work with our coaches and choreographers and skate in the shows we want you too. Regardless of any of that, she was dynamic and just great when she was on. Oh - Sandra and doing jumps in a straight line, well Michelle Kwans coach, Frank Carroll teaches jumps in a straight line, and for the edge jumps of course the curve increases as you take off. I'm not buying it Sandra. If it was good for Michelle, Chris Bowman, Tiffany Chin.....

I loved Surya Bonaly as a kid. I watched the Worlds and the Olympics in those years, although not live, but I remember the power, the finesse, the strength, the capability of this amazing young woman! I loved her enthusiasm and obvious love of skating. It was impossible to look away from her because her skating was just beautiful! Maybe it wasn't 4'10" and 85 pounds beautiful, but it was just as beautiful and possibly more compelling. Surya, I love you and I think you're amazing! Glad you guys ran this story. She was an incredible athlete and part of the continuing change of what "feminine beauty" means.

I remember WATCHING that last skate by her! As a little black girl, I would stop what I was doing to watch Surya, just as I stopped what I was doing to watch Venus and Serena when they first got well known. I do think that it's possible that it was BOTH racism and aesthetics why Surya never did as well as her skill might have indicated she should. It's not an either/or thing most of the time, most of the time it's both/and. Unfortunately, this isn't something that can be really tested for, nor is anyone ever likely to find someone bold enough to say, "yup, it's because she is black." Like the producer said, "being black can make you crazy."

Let's be honest. If she were white she would be a heroine. Her far would be on every magazine. She would have been on every tv show. but she's not so.....

I like the episode overall, but it's just not what I expect from Radiolab. I get that shows have to shake things up to stay fresh, but it just seems like the latest episodes have been much much more human-centric (rather than curiosity centric) than in the past. The change makes radiolab seem more like a musicless, less-engaging version of snap judgement. I guess I'm waiting for the next "Colors".

Awful episode. Unrecognizable Radiolab

Why is it that whenever an episode talks about race people get angry. If you don't want to listen to this show, then don't. For those of you who insist that they should only cover "science", check out the radio lab mission:

"Radiolab is a show about curiosity. Where sound illuminates ideas, and the boundaries blur between science, philosophy, and human experience."

I see more than just science in that list.

I'm so glad we had a bunch of white people to decide if this was really racism or not. FFS.

It so easy to dismiss race if you have no basses of how that can impact ones career and many will never experience because of their race. As noted earlier this young lady was a champion competing at the highest levels. Race in sports is still a sensitive topic but, the question for of "race" is a tense topic in general and can rarely be discussed without tensions rising. Also, this includes "sexism" if you remember recent comments about women in tennis.

Ah, so I see Radiolab can only do stories that involve race in some way now. Seriously, what happened to this podcast? All it is now is a virtue signaling This American Life clone. Pathetic.

If you are going to play up the racism theme, how can you completely leave Debi Thomas out of this story? Debi is black and was the World Champion in 1985. Really, Radio Lab? Disappointing story over all. Not much science involved, just a rehash of a 20 year old controversy.

I thought it was a good episode. Having watched Surya during the Olympics, I admired her athleticism, but not so much her gracefulness. I guess I bought into the commentators' comments as well. It was interesting to hear Sandra Bezic describe what judges are looking for that fans watching on TV don't always know. (At least I didn't know that.) It would have been interesting to hear other skaters' take (such as Katerina Witt or Nancy Kerrigan) on the events of that time as well. I can see how Tonya Harding could be painted with the same brush as 'outsider' with Surya, but her behavior off the ice was not acceptable. At least Surya tried to stay above the fray as much as she could until she couldn't take it any more. I don't blame her for turning down her World silver medal. Skating is very athletic, but unfortunately, a champion is ultimately decided by subjective judges who are usually 5 steps behind the curve.

I miss the old Radiolab. I'm not interested in hearing a This American Live clone.

I thought it was a great story. Would be cool if you could embed or link to a video of the backflip but maybe it's copyrighted or something. Easy to find anyway.

FYI, the href on the link to the survey is messed up. Looks like it was a redirect link copied out of an email. Should just be https://www.research.net/r/wnyclistener.

This is a common debate in manipulative arts. Power vs. Style. I was a bit peeved that race kept being implicated when it seemed pretty clear from the start that the problem was an aesthetic one. "Difficulty" alone isn't the only metric, execution and control are just as if not more important.

This podcast has become nothing but race baiting. Radiolab is dead.

The core question here, about how we can ever know for sure whether discrimination is at play when a member of a marginalised group gets passed over for something, is really important. Zoom out to society-wide level and sure, we can see patterns which are too pronounced to be coincidental- but on individual judgements, how can we say?
But I felt that the figure skating story was really just one (interesting) anecdote about this. Personally I feel it would have worked better as one section of a more science (including social science)-oriented episode. Surely research of various kinds has been carried out on these questions? Or at least there are other examples which might have illustrated different angles?
Also- and completely understandably- the story is told very much through a US-centric lens. I would have been very interested to hear how Bonaly is/was seen in France, where racial dynamics are different, if equally complex. Worth noting she was 5 time European champion and 9 time French champion.
Still, not sniping too much about a free podcast which I have got a lot out of over the years-thanks.

who did that remix of 2 Unlimited that you use in this episode?!?! I love it.

*femininity Curse you autocorrect.

The story plays as racism but the winner is not white, Asians are also often the victim of racism. So is this because of a sort of race hierarchy or iis it more to do with views of feminism? Ps I'm not saying either are ok.

I'm sorry, but the way race is laughed about in this podcast is reprehensible. What is funny about the sentence "For the first time there is more than one black skater competing at the same time internationally"? I do appreciate the podcast telling this interesting story, but there were multiple times during it that made me think about unsubscribing from the radiolab podcast, which I have now done.

If anyone recognized the orchestral music in the beginning but can't quite place it, it's from Vivaldi's Winter recomposed by Max Richter, and it's used as the opening theme in Chef's Table.