Daxius: "I'd like to roll an investigate check on Statue 1." Rolls. "Solid... 19."

DM: "You walk around the statue, gliding your fingers along the rough outlines of it's crisp, defined craftsmanship. You pause as your fingers make contact with the mouth. You feel warm air coming out, and instinctively look to the statue's chest. It appears to be breathing, though very faintly."

This is good DMing (in my humble opinion). The player wanted to use an investigate check, and the DM wove how it happened into the context of the story. But then we continue...

Daxius: "Hmm... we'll get back to that in a second. Let's see what's going on with Statue 2." Rolls. "Ugh. 6."

Let's say Statue 2 is a magical trap of sorts — whoever touches the statue must resist turning to stone themselves. A six isn't high enough to notice this. The DM has a few options here on how to proceed...

  1. "How exactly do you investigate the statue?" This definitely alerts the player that something is up with it, and they will be naturally inclined to meta-game here, as the roll was poor so they probably don't want their character especially close to it. Plus, the DM didn't ask this during the investigation Statue 1, so the very question hints that Statue 2 is dangerous.
  2. "You make contact with the statue in the same manner as before, and are instantly overcome with abrasive magic. Roll a Con save." This is consistent with the narrative from before, but now the character is in trouble for something the player never explicitly said they did.
  3. "You don't notice anything special about this statue." This is super vague and a huge departure from the description given from the first investigation. And it leaves open the implication that they touched the statue in the same way they did the first one, which the DM would be assuming they didn't, where the players might be assuming they did.

The underlying problem here is that the DM sees in his mind's eye the way the world is, and no matter how descriptive he gets the players will always paint a slightly different picture for themselves. The small inconsistencies between the two are generally harmlessly bridged with the DM taking over how, specifically, the characters achieve the goal the players announced they were attempting. But, as above, there are certainly cases where what I would call good DMing forces the DM to either punish a player in the name of consistency, or reveal what should be unknown in the name of not subverting character control.

My question, then, is this:

As a DM, how does one resolve the occasional conflict of interest between wanting to employ creative narrative without bestowing undue consequences upon those player characters who become a part of that narrative?

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Just to say, not everyone has the urge to touch things. Additionally, perception/investigation would not really divulge the fact that the stone is cursed, unless you touched it. In which case I'd leave that up to the player. – Ben 5 hours ago
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"How exactly do you investigate the statue?" One could always (more often) ask this, even for objects with positive effects. Destroy the expectation that such questions foreshadow negative effects. This might reduce the meta gaming effect. – Trilarion 3 hours ago

As DM, I wouldn’t dictate the details of the investigation of statue 1, as you do. Ideally, I would ask them to describe how they are investigating—before rolling. To keep things moving, I have been known to allow a roll and reveal the results before the description, since it’s easier to describe what you were doing when you know how it turns out, but knowing the trap was coming up, I probably wouldn’t have.

But if, for the sake of argument, I did that shortcut on statue 1, on statue 2 I would ask them if they were taking the same approach with statue 2 when the player announced they were moving on. Keeping it casual can avoid giving too much away: “Let’s see what’s going on with statue 2,” “Same approach?” With paranoid players, they might catch that something is up, but oh well: I trust my players. Either they’ll resist the urge to metagame, or they won’t and I’ll just chalk that one up to them deciding they’d have more fun that way. The game is there for having fun, after all; metagaming is bad for the game, but not necessarily always the worst thing for the game.

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That's fair and I appreciate the answer, but feel I could counter with a different hypothetical. Me - "I'd like to buy that sword." DM - "How do you pay the man?" Me - "Umm. I drop gold into his hand?" DM - "From how high?" Me - "A few inches?" DM - "Make a Dex Save, he's going to try to pull you over the counter." You can see how this could get super clunky, and so your players will either catch on that when you start asking for specifics, something is up, or you'll throw out so many red herrings that simple interactions become tired and cumbersome. – Euch 18 hours ago
    
I guess what I'm trying to say is that at some level we all kind of nod our heads in agreement that we get what the character is doing, and no matter where that line is for each group, specifically, you could encounter the underlying problem in the question. – Euch 18 hours ago
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@Euch Why does the questioning continue after “Umm. I drop gold into his hand?”? It's obvious at that point that they're not picturing anything out of the ordinary in their mental version of the narration, and the GM can proceed with that established fact. – SevenSidedDie 18 hours ago
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@Euch Either you want to get an unusual detail from them, and necessarily interrupt them to ask, or you don't want that information. Pick one or the other? – SevenSidedDie 18 hours ago
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@Euch, this isn't a perfect strategy, but one technique that may help with this is to ask for unusual details WITHOUT it being a trap on a somewhat regular basis. This is the narrative equivalent of making dummy rolls behind your DM screen so that your players don't know something's up when you roll a Spot check for them and it fails. – A_S00 17 hours ago

System agnostic answer

Many roleplay games (D&D traditionally not among them) have the concept of "failing forward". This means that every roll has some consequence which is usually narrated by the GM and usually bad for the character or the party as a whole. A roll without possible negative consequences should not be made.

Examples of such rules are:

Every moment of play, roll dice or say “yes.”

If nothing is at stake, say “yes” [to the player’s request], whatever they’re doing. Just go along with them. If they ask for information, give it to them. If they have their characters go somewhere, they’re there. If they want it, it’s theirs.

Sooner or later—sooner, because [your game’s] pregnant with crisis— they’ ll have their characters do something that someone else won’ t like. Bang! Something’s at stake. Start the confl ict and roll the dice.

Roll dice, or say “yes.” (Dogs in the Vineyard)

Burning Wheel has "Intent" and "Let it ride" rules. Intent is stated before every roll. When the roll succeeds, the intent happens. When the roll fails, all manners of things may happen (at GMs discretion) but the intent definitively doesn't happen. This can't be changed by any roll until the situation in fiction has significantly changed. An example of this two rules in play would be:

Player: I want to pick the lock before the guards come around.

roll fail

GM: Yeah, you open the lock... just as a guard comes around the corner.

Apocalypse World has "moves" a GM (MC in Apocalypse World) can make when players fail a roll. The moves are of general nature ("take their stuff away", "separate them", "inflict harm") and don't have to be directly caused by the attempted action.

What that means for your situation

With the statue example this would mean that a failed roll would totally allow you to narrate the character springing the trap. He chose to investigate and thus took the risk of touching something, he shouldn't touch. If he insists on doing a "safe, no touch" investigation he most likely won't get much useful information (but also wouldn't have to roll).

Final advice

While some games support, encourage and even demand to be played like this, many games (including D&D) don't. Thus any attempt to start playing in this style has to be agreed upon with the whole group (trivially true when it is part of the official rules of the game being played). I strongly suggest shifting to "failing forward" as the alternative leads to very slow and static play-style where not much happens, nobody trusts one another and where there is constant rules lawyering.

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I like elements of this post a lot. I don't think I'll do completely away with meaningless or bluff rolls, but might simply warn my players (assuming they're okay with this) that any details left out in their actions are subject to my interpretation. Basically: Edit the social contract to make option 2 in the OP fair. If I don't abuse it, and they don't become obnoxiously descriptive as a result of it, it seems to be ideal - they retain full character control, but know that any time they instigate a roll, they open the door for something bad to happen within a reasonable context of that roll. – Euch 16 hours ago
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@Euch The ideal result would be the players getting so comfortable with their characters getting into trouble as part of the game that they suggest results of failed rolls themselves. "Uh, I know. My character would totally botch it in this very specific and painful way." – Zalktis 16 hours ago
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@Zalktis Player's Basic Rules v0.3 page 58: If the total equals or exceeds the DC, the ability check is a success—the creature overcomes the challenge at hand. Otherwise, it's a failure, which means the character or monster makes no progress toward the object or makes progress combined with a setback determined by the DM. – okeefe 13 hours ago
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@okeefe Ok, this is the same wording I found. In my opinion "a failure, which means the character or monster makes no progress toward the object" is not failing forward. It is the standard failed-roll-nothing-happens. Also "makes progress combined with a setback determined by the DM" is more of a devils bargain or conditional success, sometimes called "GM mercy" in systems with proper failing forward. A proper failing forward would be "the character makes no progress towards the objective and something bad happens preventing him from just trying again". – Zalktis 13 hours ago
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@Zalktis Well, it's no longer “nothing happens” because the option is (thankfully) left open for the DM. But I think you are correct in that it's not an explicit fail-forward. I'm not convinced ff requires disallowing a retry, as long as attempts have consequences. – okeefe 12 hours ago

When the roll results can give hints to the player I advise to have the DM make them in secret. In this way the DM prevents metagaming based on the result.

Coming to the answer: the DM knows the second statue has a contact trap so he should already be thinking from the beginning about the problem, and ask the player to describe how exactly he investigates the first statue, and then the second one. If the player doesn't say anything about touching or not touching (can happen) the DM can just ask. The player will be suspicius but he doesn't know which will be good or bad. Also, the DM can start the description assuming the PC doesn't touch, give some information, and then ask if he wants investigate more closely by touching the statue. The DM should do this even when there isn't a trap! Keep them alert!

About the example in the comments:

For things like that, the DM can assume what he wants. He pays, he gives money, mechanically doesn't make difference how he gives the money... the rules don't go so far. If the player wants to do something strange he should say so.

When the player doesn't have any hint the DM also can roll a die for a random solution.

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"I'd like to roll an investigate check on Statue 1"

That's not really what a player should say, at least in games with a traditional role split between players (state their characters' actions) and a GM/DM (adjudicates those actions). Since "DM" is used in the question, I'll assume such a traditional-role game.

In such a game, the player shouldn't really "interact with the game using rules." Instead, they should "interact with the world using actions." In other words, the player describes character actions and based on this, the DM chooses which rules, if any, apply to those actions, and then applies them. The DM can determine a certain action without resorting to rules: if something cannot reasonably fail, no rules are necessary and the DM simply states the outcome. If randomness is involved, calling for a certain roll is usually warranted.

So the exchange should actually go more like this:

Daxius: "I'd like to investigate Statue 1."

DM: "How?"

Daxius: "I'll look first, watching out for trap trigger mechanisms or similar. If it looks safe, I'll feel the surface."

DM: "Roll an Investigate check."

Daxius: "Solid 19."

DM: "You walk around the statue, gliding your fingers along the rough outlines of it's crisp, defined craftsmanship. You pause as your fingers make contact with the mouth. You feel warm air coming out, and instinctively look to the statue's chest. It appears to be breathing, though very faintly."

If Daxius did it as above, he made it clear he intends to touch the statue and thus gave the DM explicit permission to narrate results of touching it, for weal or woe.

If the game is always run this way, there is very little potential for meta-gaming on the second statue. It's quite natural for the exchange to follow like this:

Daxius: "Hmm... we'll get back to that in a second. Let's see what's going on with Statue 2."

DM: "Same approach?"

Daxius: Nods. Rolls... "Ugh, Investigate 6."

DM: "Hold your horses. As soon as you touch the statue, you are instantly overcome with abrasive magic, bringing your investigation to an abrupt stop. Roll a Con save."

As an alternative to "Hold your horses," the DM could have taken the Investigate roll (or asked for one, if Daxius hadn't voluteered it) as determining whether the character notices any warning signs as part of the visual inspection part of the statue. If there are such signs to be seen and the roll had been high enough to notice them, the DM would of course have stopped the action mid-progress and asked whether the player wanted the character to proceed to the touching part or not.

To summarise: Have your players state their in-world actions instead of rules usage. Always be clear on what and how is being attempted, and base your DM ruling on that. It's the DM who asks for rules to be used, not the player.


The approach above is my interpretation of how D&D-like games work best. It was largely influenced by the philosophy of Angry DM, mainly his article on Adjudicating actions (warning, strong language at end of link).

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This needs more upvotes; the players shouldn't describe a roll and have you dictate their actions - they should be telling you what their actions are, and it's your responsibility to convert that into the appropriate rolls (or lack of roll). You should coach your players to interact with the world, not to interact with the rulebook. – Joe 6 mins ago

For the particular example, the description of the first statue makes it absolutely clear that investigation involves touching the statue. When the player asks to "investigate" the second they are well aware that touching is involved and the DM is not reducing their agency by assuming so.

More generally, communication is an iterative process and the onus is on the speaker to make sure the listener understands the message. It also does not occur in a vacuum, both the immediate context and the more general shared assumptions of the group are relevant. For example, it may be established either explicitly or implicitly that Investigation involves touching and Perception doesn't. For your example, the immediate context indicates that this is so: the player saying "I investigate ..." here communicates "I touch ...".

Retcons are only appropriate where the player has reasonably misunderstood the situation the DM has described. That is, the failure of communication is the DM's fault.

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