#indiewebcamp

2013-05-29

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@sandeepshetty Solve simple specific problems or you'll end up with a mess (*cough* webfinger *cough*) #indieweb ()
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@sandeepshetty Standards/protocols by BigCo employees for complex/generic BigCo problems won't solve #indieweb problems. Simple &amp ()
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Loqi specific solutions will.
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@sandeepshetty PubSubHubbub (by Google for Google) or any push based solution for the web is unnecessarily complex for #indieweb. Polling works just fine. ()
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@yoz @lachlanhardy @genmon @thisisaaronland @revdancatt @neb @michalmigurski Talk to @t: http://indiewebcamp.com/Main_Page ()
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@shawndrape @sandeepshetty I think that polling works if your network is very small. If #indieweb is a clique that's fine. Not fine for a movement. ()
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aaronpk bret: yes, will make it public
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aaronpk try it now with no key
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tantek !tell sandeepshetty PuSH was trivial to implement as a publisher. I think it's a good spec, except for the Atom dependency, which yes we should fix to work with HTML (hAtom/h-entry) in addition.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek aaronpk - can we confirm a venue sufficiently to put it on the home page and /2013 page? Instead of the bold TBD for Where?
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aaronpk tantek: yea, almost got it settled
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tantek great!
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@SergioLuque Le meilleur hashtag pour les émissions à venir de Indie Web Recordings ? #IndieWeb #IWR #IndieWebRec … #help ! #mercidavance ()
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@JonhyBleez RT @SergioLuque: Le meilleur hashtag pour les émissions à venir de Indie Web Recordings ? #IndieWeb #IWR #IndieWebRec … #help ! #mercidavan… ()
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@sandeepshetty @blaine In the context of #indieweb (decentralized) where the mode will be couple of hundred followers I'm guessing it should do just fine. ()
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Loqi sandeepshetty: tantek left you a message 2 hours, 27 minutes ago: PuSH was trivial to implement as a publisher. I think it's a good spec, except for the Atom dependency, which yes we should fix to work with HTML (hAtom/h-entry) in addition.
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aaronpk yes exactly
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sandeepshetty aaronpk: There's only so much context I can add in 140 chars... I was specifically talking about feeds...
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tantek sandeepshetty - then you should have blogged it on your own site
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tantek no one here should EVER be using the "only so much context I can add in 140 chars" excuse.
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tantek EVER
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aaronpk lol yea that's not an excuse here :) I go over 140 chars all the time!
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sandeepshetty I know :) Was on the move all day so just quickly jotted down stuff... will be converted to blog posts soon..
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aaronpk long-form notes are ok too!
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barnabywalters I write long form notes quite often
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aaronpk example: https://twitter.com/aaronpk/status/336305584213225473
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sandeepshetty It was more about the convenience of a mobile client...
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barnabywalters sandeepshetty: sounds like an itch which needs scratching ;)
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@aaronpk Super torn on using http://t.co/8W5WfwL9rv. One one hand I really like the low-friction UI, automatically... http://t.co/3eoD7HNeMa ()
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barnabywalters I haven’t timed it but I’m pretty sure I can post notes to my site faster than I can to twitter
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tantek hmm, perhaps we need to start a /excuses page
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barnabywalters due to iOS app startup times
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tantek Loqi, Y U T.CO? :(
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Loqi who, me?
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barnabywalters and the fact I have a dedicated “new note” home screen icon
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tantek barnabywalters - nice.
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sandeepshetty No 3G where I was and edge is very slow... so firing a mobile client and typing is faster than browsing...
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barnabywalters with web-action style URL param autofilling you can also make the home screen icons prefill tags and such things
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tantek heads-up, about to jump into this: https://twitter.com/genmon/status/339707310970642433
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aaronpk hahahaha
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tantek sandeepshetty - sounds like you need to investigate the "email to post" stuff that barnabywalters has working.
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barnabywalters tantek: that thread’s interesting — anil seems to be talking about the granny antipattern
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tantek in terms of authoring latency etc.
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@genmon The Web We Lost http://t.co/3pfQSQgR7x -- if there's a secret cabal pledged to building web-based interop to undermine the stacks, lmk ()
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tantek barnabywalters - yeah
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tantek note that Yoz already tapped me
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barnabywalters I saw
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tantek before picking a fight with Anil
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Loqi hehe
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tantek who sharecrops his notes
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barnabywalters btw tantek — just working on new version of Taproot, using 6 char SXG epoch days + SXG seconds for note IDs
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tantek and that's what I'm going to reply to first
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barnabywalters s/talking about/promoting
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tantek :D
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tantek exactly, 500 years should be good enough for anyone (reasonably human-like)
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tantek (insert obv 640k reference)
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sandeepshetty anyone syndicating content on their site (webmention, feed, etc)? How do you deal with security?
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barnabywalters as someone who considers himself reasonably human-like, I concur
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tantek what are you talking about specifically?
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barnabywalters sandeepshetty: you mean inbound content?
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sandeepshetty I mean into the site...
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tantek sandeepshetty - we're all syndicating out plenty via POSSE
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barnabywalters aaronpk and I are doing reply contexts, talk to eschnou about comments ;)
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tantek did you not see that blog post?
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aaronpk barnabywalters: i'm doing comments now too!
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barnabywalters aaronpk: woo!
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barnabywalters tries to leave aaronpk a comment
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sandeepshetty If you add webmention content on your site and it's html then how do you deal with security
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tantek sandeepshetty - eschnou obv - indieweb comments
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aaronpk sandeepshetty: I only use plaintext
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barnabywalters which so far has been a fair balance
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sandeepshetty aaronpk: so you strip out html?
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barnabywalters sandeepshetty: from my reply contexts, I strip HTML then auto-link
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aaronpk I do, but only because the mf2 parser does it for me
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aaronpk and then yea I re-link. which has the interesting side effect that other people's hashtags end up linking to my own tag pages
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barnabywalters aaronpk: I should mention: be VERY careful about that
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sandeepshetty this brings me to stuff I've been thinking about feeds... they have the same problem no?
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barnabywalters all it takes is someone to mark up their content as e-summary instead of p-summary and you’ve got injection
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aaronpk barnabywalters: you should document that on the parser :)
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aaronpk i'm using the p-name only
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barnabywalters aaronpk: I do mention that the parser does no filtering and all data should be suitably filtered, but I should add that particular case as an example
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barnabywalters aaronpk: e-name ;)
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aaronpk ah yes plz document :)
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sandeepshetty so my question is: Are html feeds broken fundamentally?
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sandeepshetty all the big silos only do text
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sandeepshetty (twitter, facebook, g+)
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barnabywalters only do text? how’d you mean?
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tantek sandeepshetty - "all the big silos only do…" is also a poor justification for anything
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tantek really bad reasoning/methodology
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sandeepshetty it wasn't meant as justification..
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sandeepshetty just research..
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tantek mobile email clients are MUCH better behaved on slow mobile networks (Edge etc.) compared to any kind of mobile native posting client.
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tantek all the big silos kill permalinks
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tantek sandeepshetty - doesn't your mobile device have a web browser?
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tantek why bias research towards bad actors?
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barnabywalters aaronpk: left http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/1468/, did it work?
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barnabywalters yay! it did!
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Loqi woot
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barnabywalters gives aaronpk a high five
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aaronpk nice
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aaronpk high fives barnabywalters
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sandeepshetty tantek: I prefer looking across the board... there's always stuff to learn...
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sandeepshetty I'm leaning towards plain text feeds...
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aaronpk I was assuming plaintext feeds without realizing it
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tantek sandeepshetty - sure, there's plenty to learn, even from bad examples, but it's always better to look at good examples first
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aaronpk although there are well-established practices for sanitizing html at this point. just look at wordpress, mediawiki, forums, etc etc
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tantek aaronpk - sounds like something you could add to the wiki
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tantek since you're saying it's "well-established" ;)
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aaronpk hehe yes
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sandeepshetty sanitizing html seems to have edge cases..
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sandeepshetty and stripping it means you loose context
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aaronpk that's why i'm doing plaintext right now
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tantek aaronpk - I think that's reasonable, get something simple built quickly
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sandeepshetty will you ever be implementing a feed reader on your site? I want my site to be both a medium for publishing and consuming..
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tantek aaronpk even start /plaintext and dump these thoughts there
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tantek and we can link to them from /comments
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sandeepshetty aaronpk: sorry I might have missed this but how are you ensuring you're getting plain text when the content is external?
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tantek sandeepshetty - I think he's busy documenting that at /plaintext
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tantek though that makes a good FAQ for that page
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sandeepshetty :)
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aaronpk sandeepshetty: apparently i'm not, but I thought I was. my assumption was that the "name" property from the mf2 parser was always plaintext
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aaronpk so i will add a strip_tags() around the name
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tantek aaronpk - anything can be e-*
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tantek or someone can also embed literal < > & in the plaintext as well
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eschnou aaronpk, did I just read you display indie comments?
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tantek so you don't actually want to strip names
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tantek er
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tantek strip tags
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aaronpk none of the examples I was looking at had e-name
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sandeepshetty and with what eschnou there seems to be a big security hole.. which is why I left out the bit about what to do with the webmention in the spec
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tantek if someone puts "&" in the text, you should keep it, and escape when publishing if necessary
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aaronpk tantek: yea my goal is plaintext, whatever that takes
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tantek aaronpk - use of < > is plain text
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aaronpk eschnou: yes! indiecomments! http://aaronparecki.com/notes/2013/05/21/1/xkcd
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tantek everything I'm typing into IRC is plain text
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tantek and if I name my blog post: About the <time> element
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tantek it should remain that way in whatever system
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tantek if it turns into
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barnabywalters if you htmlencode the entities from php-mf2 the worst that will happen is that you’ll get html showing up in the output
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tantek About the element
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tantek then you've got a bug
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tantek you're losing plaintext
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tantek so just "strip tags" is wrong
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barnabywalters which is okay as it’s a fault of the published
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aaronpk tantek: yes that is what I want to do. if you publish html on your site that renders as <time> you have to have escaped those characters
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aaronpk which means by the time I get it, i don't get <, I get &lt;
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sandeepshetty tantek: those should use htmlspecialchars()
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tantek sandeepshetty why?
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tantek you can't assume the data will go into an HTML context
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sandeepshetty tantek: re: and if I name my blog post: About the <time> element
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tantek only the publisher can assume that
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tantek the (re)publisher
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tantek if I put it into an email subject line
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tantek I don't want to see &amp;
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tantek that's just dumb
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tantek premature html escaping causes plaintext corruption
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barnabywalters aaronpk: “i don't get <, I get &lt;” is not the case
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tantek.com edited /2013/Guest_List (+405) "/* Creators */ putting in placeholder images for folks that forgot to - based on what they have at their site, github, twitter, or otherwise linkto from the contact/about pages. feel free to change, but something is better than nothing, public URLs" (view diff)
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tantek ok folks I just added a bunch of images for the slackers
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eschnou aaronpk, hmm.. just commented and it didn't show up...
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tantek so if you want a different image (ahem, caseorganic, termie), you might want to edit your RSVP
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barnabywalters Regarding the e-* p-* HTML thing, please see this gist: https://gist.github.com/barnabywalters/5673385
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aaronpk eschnou: did you send a pingback or webmention?
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eschnou aaronpk, pingback
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sandeepshetty tantek: Whats the solution to the '&' problem?
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barnabywalters (output from php-mf2, I have not tested with any other parsers)
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aaronpk eschnou: did you get a successful reply from the pingback?
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eschnou is digging in the logs
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barnabywalters specifically, line 22 https://gist.github.com/barnabywalters/5673385#file-output-json-L22
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eschnou aaronpk, mm... no_link_found
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sandeepshetty so the reason I brought this up is that if everyone plans to do plain text feeds then how do we add the lost context (microforats related to citation, etc.)
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tantek is going to wait for aaronpk to document this on /plaintext
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aaronpk can't right now, mostly distracted!
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barnabywalters sandeepshetty: it’s safe to parse microformats and display the data in whatever way you see fit — provided the output is all htmlencoded
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tantek sandeeshetty - feel free to add your questions to an FAQ section on the /plaintext page
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sandeepshetty tantek: will do
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tantek heck, CREATE the page if you have to
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sandeepshetty barnabywalters: that has the '& problem that tantek pointed out..
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aaronpk please do heh I will add stuff to it later
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tantek sandeepshetty - type it into the new page - there's already too many hanging questions / answers here in IRC to track
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sandeepshetty * on it
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barnabywalters if you’re displaying the content as HTML you can assume it’s going in an HTML context and html-encode it
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barnabywalters the problem is solved outside the parser
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tantek barnabywalters - the parser should not be escaping plain text
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tantek except for JSON - since that's where it puts it
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eschnou I did not follow you plaintext discussion, but is it not just a matter of strip_tags, and allowing some safe tags (e.g. a anchors, span, etc?)
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sandeepshetty eschnou: there are always edge cases with that approach..
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tantek eschnou - unfortunately no - nothing is "just a matter of…" right now
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tantek WE can't follow the plaintext discussion because we exceeded IRC thread readability
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tantek hence pointing people to write up their questions/answers on the wiki
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aaronpk we broke irc
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tantek which forces a focusing function
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tantek aaronpk - IRC just has limitations
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tantek like Twitter or anything else
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tantek just need to recognize them and know when to move things elsewhere
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aaronpk yep good call
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eschnou tantek, as long as we don't move to a mailing list, I'm fine :)
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aaronpk hahaha
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tantek eschnou - you said it brother
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tantek mailing lists are worse for all the above
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sandeep.shetty.in created /plaintext (+285) "Created page with "* Displaying HTML content from external sites (feeds, webmention, etc.) posses a security risk. * Prefer plaintext * Whats the right way to sanitize external content. * However c..."" (view diff)
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tantek so I start writing an @-reply, and then realize I can improve the UI-flow of my @-reply authoring, so I jump into writing code...
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tantek itch -> scratch
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eschnou I like IRC, and the fact we log the channel, I actually like to get my morning coffee reading your discussions of the night :-)
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tantek (certainly not itch -&gt
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tantek scratch ) :P
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aaronpk eschnou: sometimes i wish i was in your timezone
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sandeep.shetty.in edited /plaintext (+57) (view diff)
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sandeepshetty Jsut added some points /plaintext.. feel free to add stuff... I'm new to this
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eschnou aaronpk, ho, that's easy: cp /usr/share/zoneinfo/Europe/Brussels /etc/localtime
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eschnou ;-)
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aaronpk haha
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aaronpk eschnou: what's the post you tried to reply to me with?
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eschnou aaronpk, xkcd
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barnabywalters just caught up — tantek: RE parser shoudn’t be escaping plaintext: it isn’t
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barnabywalters unless I am missing something
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eschnou aaronpk, http://eschnou.storytlr.net/entry/aaronpareckicom-duh-i-actually-never-realized-there-was-hover-text-in-xk-62-24947.html
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eschnou but the issue may be there: that link actually 301 to my domain at eschnou.com, maybe that your code does not follow these redirects
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sandeepshetty barnabywalters: how do decide if the external content is plaintext or html?
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eschnou aaronpk, I should use the cname domain, but my current implementation makes it tricky and I didn't spend the time on this yet.
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aaronpk ohhh
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barnabywalters sandeepshetty: go by the microformats spec (assume plaintext from name, summary and HTML from content) and if you overencode, it’s the publisher’s problem which needs to be fixed on their end
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barnabywalters if in doubt (dealing with unknown properties), encode
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aaronpk barnabywalters: wait what! now you say name has to be plaintext?
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sandeepshetty This isn't a publishing problem.. it's a security one... assume malicious parties...
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aaronpk eschnou: yea probably I am not following the redirect...
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barnabywalters sandeepshetty: I am
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sandeepshetty barnabywalters: you'll have to explain.. are you saying you won't encode the name and summary?
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barnabywalters with the logic I described, the worst that happens assuming a malicious party is you get some escaped HTML showing up on your site
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barnabywalters okay, I’m writing this up with code samples :)
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sandeepshetty just add it to /plaintext
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aaronpk heh
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aaronpk so barnaby just replied to eschnou's reply
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aaronpk http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/1469/ http://eschnou.com/entry/aaronpareckicom-duh-i-actually-never-realized-there-was-hover-text-in-xk-62-24947.html
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aaronpk I want to be notified of barnaby's reply
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termie tantek: looking now
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tantek aaronpk - sounds like a use-case you should document on /webmention
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termie tantek: that's a good image, it will make people not recognize me
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tantek termie LOL
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termie tantek: so i can sneak up on them and get all indieweb
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tantek ROFL
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eschnou aaronpk, well, I think this is more the case of you 'subscribing' to the comments feed
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termie and yay caseorganic, she was fun to talk to at xoxo
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Loqi giggles
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eschnou aaronpk, how to subscribe and to which feed is what to discuss
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aaronpk ooh I do like the subscribe idea
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tantek eschnou - subscription eventually comes down to PuSH notifications
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tantek so if we're talking about a notification based protocol, we should consider multiple possibilities
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eschnou tantek, absolutely and the discussion we previously had on PuSH and microformats support
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tantek both PuSH based and webmention based
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tantek they're both just notification protocols
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tantek no reason to dismiss either one out of hand
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tantek we don't know what combination of each would actually work best in this use-case
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eschnou tantek, well, as a (lazy) developer, I would mind if we just settle on one for now :-)
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tantek hence once again
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sandeepshetty People that have implemented PuSH: do you also subscribe to feeds with regular rss/atom?
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tantek eschnou - sometimes an ounce of thinking can prevent a pound of wasted coding
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tantek that's the problem with the "just settle on one for now"
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aaronpk sandeepshetty: I publish to a hub, but don't subscribe to anything because it's too hard
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tantek methodology
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tantek a-ha - see now that's interesting
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tantek subscribing too hard
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tantek aaronpk - but you have no problems receiving webmentions
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aaronpk yea, subscribing in PuSH is too hard because of the extra round-trip the request has to make
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tantek so you ARE subscribing
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sandeepshetty I would just prefer building in a feed reader into my site.. why go PuSH?
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tantek sandeepshetty - depends on how "real time" you want it
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tantek if you want your feed updates to be as fresh as txt messages on your phone, you want PuSH
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barnabywalters and how many resources you want to waste
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aaronpk no, webmention isn't subscribing, because anybody can send me a webmention unsolicited. subscribing implies intent on my behalf
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sandeepshetty I think real time is overrated in this case..
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sandeepshetty a 5 min dealy won't make a difference..
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barnabywalters webmention and PuSH are solving different problems
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aaronpk realtime is not overrated. I get IRC notiications about all sorts of stuff in realtime and it's great
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tantek aaronpk - I think you meant was, subscribing implies an open connection / relationship of sorts
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tantek whereas webmentions are purely transactional
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tantek however, you asked for a relationship
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tantek you said you wanted to receive webmentions
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tantek for a specific post's comments
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aaronpk anybody can send me a webmention whether I want it or not
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sandeepshetty tantek: webmentions are unsolicited
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aaronpk that's very different from subscribing
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tantek but that's not what you asked for
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tantek you specifically asked for future webmentions for a specific post's comments
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tantek which *is* a request for a relationship
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aaronpk no, I said "I want to be notified of barnaby's reply", nothing about protocol
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tantek and presumably every other reply
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sandeepshetty tantek: one is with a specific person the other with everyone..
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tantek not just barnaby's
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aaronpk yes in this case I really do want to subscribe to that thread, and the thread on barnaby's site too. which is going to quickly turn into a de-duplication problem :)
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aaronpk this needs a new page lol
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tantek aaronpk - so, you're going to create that right? ;)
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aaronpk yes this time
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tantek :D
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tantek gives up on incremental coding improvement for now, but has noted what functions he needs to change to get the incremental UI improvement he wanted.
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eschnou aaronpk, I cheated and pinged manually with the good link and it is there, yeah!
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aaronpk hooray!
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sandeepshetty I like hackable protocols :)
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barnabywalters I am up to speed on the e-* p-* issue now
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barnabywalters there is indeed a potential overescaping problem when dealing with incoming e-* content
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@t Thanks @yoz! @lachlanhardy @thisisaaronland @revdancatt have personal sites, join us @IndieWebCamp June 22-23: http://tantek.com/2013/149/t1/have-personal-sites-join-us-indiewebcamp ()
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barnabywalters my initial thoughts on how to fix it are to see if the content which is expected to be e-* parses as HTML
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barnabywalters the problem mainly is that if you expect a property to be parsed as e-* but it was marked up and parsed as p-*, you’re either going to get incorrect HTML or mistake encoded HTML for literal HTML
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tantek barnabywalters - worth bringing that up in #microformats
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barnabywalters my brain is frazzled from a day of statistical stuff and an evening of whatever it was we were just discussing ;) off to bed now
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barnabywalters goodnight all
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Loqi buenas noches
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tantek poor kid, we wore him out.
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tantek this channel is getting intense!
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aaronpk srsly
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sandeepshetty :)
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tantek can I just say how much you guys all rock?
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tantek is still doing lots of catch-up coding on the whole comments / reply-contexts thing.
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sandeepshetty aaronpk: re getting notifications about new comments.. old school blogs used to have a "email me when a new comment is posted" type feature
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aaronpk yea! i think that's what eschnou was alluding to
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tantek sandeepshetty - good point!
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tantek aaronpk - can we use any of those email providers you mentioned/listed on the wiki for that use-case?
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eschnou sandeepshetty, I actually do have this feature :-)
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aaronpk hah yes, but I don't *really* want to get them via email
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tantek eshnou - did you implement it? or do you use an email provider to send?
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tantek aaronpk - it's for your readers!
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aaronpk ah
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sandeepshetty it's better to solve is orthogonally like that...
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tantek and it's something they can get from your site, that they can't get from Twitter!!@
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eschnou tantek, well, I just use the php send email stuff
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tantek eschnou - good to know
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eschnou tantek, I guess you can configure the smtp gateway of your choice etc.
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aaronpk heh yea I gave up on sending email from my own servers a long time ago. really not fun dealing with delivery issues
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sandeepshetty aaronpk: it isn't meant to be super realiable..
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aaronpk I won't bother doucmenting those issues, there's a ton of info already: http://mailchimp.com/features/email-delivery/ http://mailchimp.com/resources/guides/html/email-delivery-for-it-professionals/
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tantek worth documenting both approaches
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eschnou one of the challenge is that I do all this synchronously, but when the comment thread gets long, it means someone posting a new comment sees the waiter rolling for a while...
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aaronpk eschnou: I implemented a simple task queuing system into p3k this weekend
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eschnou the good thing is I never really have much comments on my site anyway :-)
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sandeepshetty eschnou: You can jsut fork off a process...
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eschnou aaronpk, that's what I need indeed...
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aaronpk check out beanstalkd. works with any/multiple language
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aaronpk super simple and lightweight
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eschnou thanks, will have a look
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sandeepshetty you could also do a lo-fi solution... add an entry and have a corn send out the email..
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sandeepshetty If you can't tell I'm all for lo-fi solutions :(
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Loqi aww, cheer up
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sandeepshetty I meant :D
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aaronpk cron?
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eschnou well, I'm off as well, cheers all!
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sandeepshetty argh I should just go to bed..
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sandeepshetty aaronpk: yes
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aaronpk yea that would be cool too. simpler/slower queuing, fewer moving parts
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aaronpk sounds like we need a /queueing page now too
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sandeepshetty Time for me to get some shut eye... later.
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aaronpk night!
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sandeep.shetty.in created /queueing (+158) "Created page with "Approaches to handle work asynchronously * A proper queuing system like beanstalkd, gearman * Make an entry somewhere for the task and then have a cron do it."" (view diff)
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tantek I was using an h-as-reply class for my replies, but now I'm finding I don't have much use for it
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tantek for display purposes (e.g. reply contexts) I can simply ask, does this post have an in-reply-to URL or not?
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tantek and if does, display it as a reply with reply context
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sandeep.shetty.in edited /queueing (+4) (view diff)
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sandeep.shetty.in edited /plaintext (-8) (view diff)
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@t @jalbertbowdenii #indieweb creators: #ownyourdomain #ownyourdata, create code|design|ux, share: http://indiewebcamp.com/Creator (ttk.me t4QE2) ()
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tantek can I just say I love having #ownyourdata @-reply support?
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tantek like I can finally have threaded conversations with Twitter sharecroppers again.
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tantek speaking of which, I have to respond to Anil.
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@t @anildash @yoz @genmon goals are good. But no one project can build interop, just monoculture: http://indiewebcamp.com/monoculture (ttk.me t4QE3) ()
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@t @anildash @yoz @genmon “regular people want” *is* idealist. Successes start with scratching personal itches. #indieweb (ttk.me t4QE4) ()
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@t @genmon which of those is an itch for your own personal site? Join us on Freenode #indiewebcamp ()
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Loqi let's discuss further (ttk.me t4QE5)
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tantek ok, done replying. Feel free to add more if you think I missed anything.
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tantek (still holding the but-why-are-you-still-sharecropping-on-twitter-then ace for later use)
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tantek and keep an eye out for genmon in case he actually shows up!
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tantek he's in the UK so he may be off for the night.
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aaronpk you can !tell him something so you get pinged when he joins!
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tantek aaronpk - I'm not sure what his irc nick will be
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tantek though I can guess genmon
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tantek what's the harm I suppose
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aaronpk true
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tantek !tell genmon welcome to #indiewebcamp! how may we service your #indieweb needs? :)
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek.com edited /queueing (+10) "is a stub" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /plaintext (+10) "is a stub" (view diff)
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tantek man, posting all those @-replies really makes it clear I need reply-context on my replies on my own site
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tantek not very useful without the context :/
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tantek or at least "View conversation on Twitter" rel syndication links
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tantek sigh
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aaronpk +1 for syndication links at the very least
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tantek aaronpk, thanks, I do appreciate that input
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tantek in figuring out what to prioritize implementing, sometimes it's hard for me to tell which itch is hurting more
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aaronpk that would at least let me auto-discover your syndicated posts when replying. also when reading your site it's not a big deal to click through to a tweet most of the time
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tantek so outside perspective can help a lot there :)
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tantek so e.g. "View on Twitter" and "View conversation on Twitter" links then?
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tantek would that be click-through discoverable enough?
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aaronparecki.com created /comment-notifications (+3567) "Created page with "== Scenario == # [[User:Aaronparecki.com|aaronpk]] created a new post [http://aaronparecki.com/notes/2013/05/21/1/xkcd] # [[User:Eschnou.com|eschnou]] created a reply post [http..."" (view diff)
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tantek woot!
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Loqi :D
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aaronpk tantek: yes those titles sound completely reasonable
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aaronpk or instead of "View on Twitter" it could be "Reply on Twitter" if you want something more actionable
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aaronpk that was my reasoning for using "reply on twitter"
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tantek I don't want to send a message that I'm advocating using Twitter for replies
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aaronpk hah ok
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aaronpk that's the other way of looking at it
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tantek since that doesn't seem like a good idea to propagate vis-a-vis supporting an #indieweb way
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aaronpk i'm curious what you think of #3 on http://indiewebcamp.com/comment-notifications (conversation threading)
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tantek 1 sec, updating Falcon working on
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aaronpk cool
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tantek.com edited /Falcon (+489) "/* Working On */ add more specifics/reasons for rel syndication link use-cases" (view diff)
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tantek I'm really glad I'm documenting this itching intuition before/while implementing this stuff, as then it feels much more real than the hypothetical "if only …" or "I wish…" type declarations people usually make
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tantek as I implement each one, I plan to move the reasoning bits to the generic pages on each subject
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tantek seems like each is useful as a case study
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tantek so re Option 3
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tantek a few things
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tantek I don't think we can avoid "threading" at least semantically whatever we do. Threading happens naturally due to the freedom of hypertext structures and our use of in-reply-to links
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tantek this is independent of any protocol decisions/design
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aaronpk i'm not talking about threading in terms of nesting and indented displays
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tantek I'm saying it's useful to acknowledge that semantic threading is inevitable
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aaronpk ok
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tantek as that helps inform the design of anything related
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tantek we can choose to flatten or not in protocol or in display for other reasons
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tantek I think Option 2 is something we're going to have to solve any way for multi-replies
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tantek which IMO is the right way to approach solving it - solve multireplies
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tantek in terms of "much more careful markup to make work properly", perhaps we can combine in-reply-to and breadcrumbs
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tantek http://microformats.org/wiki/breadcrumbs
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aaronpk is not a fan of breadcrumbs
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tantek yeah - the presentation is kinda ugly IMO
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aaronpk tends to lend itself to overengineered sites
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aaronpk I used to implement strict breadcrumbs both on my personal site and also commercial sites I was making, eventually just dropped the whole thing.
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aaronpk in like 2003-2004
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tantek they're only useful if they help the reader with a sense of where they are
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tantek and if the crumbs are actually useful places to go
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aaronpk right
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tantek re: Option 1 btw - I think subscribing to comments is fascinating and part of a larger "subscribing to an indieweb site" discussion
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aaronpk I find the "Where you are" only really applies when you're reading really big sites that have a full TOC like reference manuals
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tantek aaronpk - yeah, deep TOCs
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sandeepshetty Ok I couldn't sleep...
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tantek welcome back!
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sandeepshetty aaronpk: re Comment-Notifications I think what you are looking for is doen by salmon..
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sandeepshetty sending comments upstream (hence the name salmon)
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aaronpk possibly. I would have to dig back into xml land to figure that out, and I remember it being really painful before
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sandeepshetty Might be interesting to think about how it could be done with webmention
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sandeepshetty tantek: re the '&' bug: if you encode "tantek & aaronpk" only during displaying it as html, then it still "appears" as "tantek & aaronpk"
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tantek sandeepshetty - that's right
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tantek that's the way to do it
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sandeepshetty So always encoding plaintext is the way to go.l..
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tantek push the encoding responsibility to the last moment
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tantek sandeepshetty - that's what I do with my own content!
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sandeepshetty Thats how I would do it anyway.. its the responsibility of the templating engine in my case..
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sandeepshetty :)
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tantek exactly
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sandeepshetty also re composite streams (discussion from 2013-05-28): I guess I'm the only on that has only a single post type...
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sandeepshetty s/on/one
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Loqi sandeepshetty meant to say: also re composite streams (discussione from 2013-05-28): I guess I'm the onely one that has onely a single post type...
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tantek sandeepshetty - no, the default is that people only have a single post type. a blog post.
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tantek article
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tantek what's different is having multiple post types
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tantek er, less common
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sandeepshetty why do you need multiple post types?
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tantek sandeepshetty - because I like to post notes and articles.
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tantek and now replies
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tantek though for me replies aren't a new "type" as much as an aspect of any post type
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sandeepshetty to me the only diff between notes and articles is the title..
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sandeepshetty its more a last mile display thing than anything else..
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aaronpk sandeepshetty: my notes are plaintext, articles have formatting. also see: http://indiewebcamp.com/Semantics_Of_Article-Note_Distinction
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sandeepshetty I just do markdown for both
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aaronpk I did, but recently converted by notes to all plaintext for a number of reasons
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sandeepshetty be interesting to know the reasons...
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sandeepshetty which brings me to https://github.com/converspace/markaround
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tantek yeah - that page (distinction)
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tantek sandeepshetty - for me, the display is quite different
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tantek and really this is all UX/design based
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sandeepshetty doesn't it kinda suck to have the ux dictate the backend?
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tantek because I want to make things look different, it makes sense to do so based on an explicit semantic difference.
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aaronpk mostly due to syndicating content elsewhere. pushing to twitter, if I had <a href="http://tantek.com">Tantek</a> somewhere, twitter would only display Tantek. Same for when barnaby's site would pull out my h-entry.
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tantek sandeepshetty no! UX should always dictate the design of EVERYTHING
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tantek user-centered design
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sandeepshetty aaronpk: I just push markdown... works well for me..
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tantek http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User-centered_design
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sandeepshetty :)
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aaronpk sandeepshetty: you push markdown out to twitter?
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sandeepshetty yeah let me dig up some tweets..
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sandeepshetty this for example: https://twitter.com/sandeepshetty/status/268135012493324289 it's just a bookmark (which is also just a regular post on converspace)
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@sandeepshetty [Efficient Pagination Using MySQL](http://t.co/NaVPM5mj) #php (http://t.co/PyUOTMHL) ()
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sandeepshetty and this: https://twitter.com/sandeepshetty/status/267173915330236416
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@sandeepshetty Stumbled upon [Dopplr colors](http://t.co/HrQqXJ3Q) via @briansuda. Using it in #converspace to [...](http://t.co/8D4Je4iy) #indieweb ()
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tantek wow that's fascinating
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sandeepshetty tantek: From a stream perspective it's all just content I'm publishing.... why the need for them to look different?
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tantek sandeepshetty - we should document this as another POSSE to Twitter alternative approach
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tantek sandeepshetty - aesthetics
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tantek personal preference
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sandeepshetty I should mention I don't auto-post to twitter... I think each medium (twitter/facebook) has it nuances.. so I hand edit before posting..
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Loqi fo sho
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sandeepshetty plus I work on making it enticing to click through to go to the site..
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sandeepshetty like this for example https://twitter.com/sandeepshetty/status/267744716244795392
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@sandeepshetty Reading Layers - There are many layers at which you can read a post. For example: [...](http://t.co/GLKtfSnF) #writing ()
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tantek sandeepshetty - that's a totally fine approach to POSSE
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aaronparecki.com edited /Semantics_Of_Article-Note_Distinction (+312) "/* Personal, subjective distinctions */ adding my thoughts" (view diff)
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sandeepshetty aaronpk: what was the problem with posting markdown to twtiter?
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tantek as long as you're *only* posting to Twitter stuff that is at least somewhat on your own site
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aaronpk i wasn't posting markdown to twitter, I was posting the text to twitter converted from my HTML.
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aaronpk so <a href="http://tantek.com">Tantek</a> would end up on twitter as just "Tantek"
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aaronpk and if I linked to an article, it would just get the name of the link
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aaronpk so I switched to plaintext just like twitter does it
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tantek aaronpk - that's too bad - because you could auto-convert that to an @-reference
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tantek (like what Barnaby does)
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sandeepshetty ah.. I just have everything in markdown hence the need for me to move to https://github.com/converspace/markaround eventually so that I can do microformts in plain text
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aaronpk for people yes, but not for other links
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tantek yes
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sandeepshetty tantek: When you have sometime take a look at https://github.com/converspace/markaround its a very early draft.. I'm hoping to start implementation in a months time... I know there are something there that you don't like (based on your markdown wiki page)
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tantek oh you've seen my markdown rant page huh? ;)
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tantek I see we agree on some things "only one way to do something"
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sandeepshetty yep :)
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aaronpk heh I also have my own extended markdown
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tantek oh look, References!!!
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tantek :)
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sandeepshetty aaronpk: I also do extended markdown on sandeep.io (stuff like @names, hastags, etc..)
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aaronpk which ironically has a minor escaping issue right now http://aaronparecki.com/articles/2012/09/01/1/some-enhancements-to-markdown
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tantek sandeepshetty - yeah, some of it I like, others not
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sandeepshetty but I don't think of them as part of content. Just a presentation thing.
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tantek I'm pretty big on the normalish readable text principle
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tantek rather than cribbing from MediaWiki syntax
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sandeepshetty The big things for me there are the consistent link syntax... check img linking and regular linking..
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sandeepshetty and I was going for faster typing.. because it almost always gets converted when viewing...
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sandeepshetty without giving up too much on raw readability though...
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tantek all the indented list stuff you have gives up on readability IMO
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tantek (it's one of my pet peeves with media wiki syntax)
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sandeep.shetty.in edited /plaintext (+80) (view diff)
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sandeep.shetty.in edited /comment-notifications (+149) "/* Related */" (view diff)
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sandeepshetty It's a tradeoff for being able to type in textareas... tabs are big pain in the *** inside textareas
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sandeep.shetty.in edited /Semantics_Of_Article-Note_Distinction (+162) "/* Personal, subjective distinctions */" (view diff)
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sandeepshetty over and out.
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sandeep.shetty.in edited /queueing (+103) (view diff)
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tantek I guess not quite out ;)
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sandeep.shetty.in edited /Semantics_Of_Article-Note_Distinction (+12) "/* Personal, subjective distinctions */" (view diff)
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tantek um I just came up with I think another post type, that's kind of particular, maybe an edge case
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tantek a cartoon
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tantek subset of drawing
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aaronpk heh
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tantek I guess technically a photograph thereof
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aaronpk why is that not just a photo?
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tantek but I'd display it differently than just a photo
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tantek because it has a name and caption built into the image
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tantek but I'd want to reflect those semantics in alternate markup
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aaronpk huh interesting
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aaronpk some of my photos have a name and caption though
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aaronpk i think it's just a photo post that also has a name and text content
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tantek maybe? I mean example: http://xkcd.com/386/
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tantek then there's http://davidwalsh.name/cmx-js
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aaronpk lol!
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tantek one difference - a comic would likely have multiple panels
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tantek and dialog
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tantek and I'd want to mark that up some way so that it was accessible
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tantek I guess I'd need to post a real world example to play with
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tantek hmm
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tantek related: http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2013/02/xkcd-style-comic-generator/
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tantek another example: http://cssquirrel.com/comic/?comic=101
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tantek how sad - it uses longdesc - which 404s
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@sandeepshetty @shawndrape the #indieweb (statistical) mode will be small no. of followers. Poll will work just fine. ()
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tantek the path sandeepshetty is taking is fine. minimal implementation based on polling, then he can assess later whether he needs/wants PuSH or not
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tantek whether any one of us agrees or not, doesn't matter, it's part of the strength of the indieweb, each implementer decides for themselves what approach to prioritize
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tantek in contrast to monocultures
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tantek ok so for comics posts
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tantek I'm thinking they resemble articles since they typically have a name
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tantek at least XKCD style
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tantek and I'm thinking of putting the whole thing in an <object>
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tantek and having the fallback heading etc. in the <object>
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tantek so it'll be a special kind of article - we'll see how much I have to change my CSS to make this work
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tantek but I'm reusing the "a" shortcode for it
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tantek er, I mean "b". ahem.
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bret not to bag on facebook more but... screw it lets: https://medium.com/a-programmers-tale/f7b8c66109ea
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bret although, going through the comments makes me frown. Lots of "twitter is still good, lets fail to realize the bigger issue here"
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bret as if twitter is going to a) ever going to have as big of an impact as FB, and b) not be susceptible to all of the same problems
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pdurbin twitter used to be great. facebook never was
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bret facebook used to be okay when it was highschool and college
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bret seemingly
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pdurbin I was out of college already when facebook was just college
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bret in retrospect, given what it turned into though, i see that this was a drastic illusion and mistake us kids made in promoting it
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bret :/
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bret oh well oops
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@matro http://indiewebcamp.com/monoculture ()
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tantek well one distinction I've found between a comic and an article is that I don't want to display an explicit <h1> heading before a comic - since the comic has the heading built into the image
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tantek so I'm going to use h-as-article h-as-comic
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cweiske what about a hidden topic?
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cweiske because the image is not easily machine-readable
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tantek cweiske - hence I'm using <object> for the image with text fallback inside
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cweiske ah
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tantek but in this case I may be able to simply query the entry-title node to see if it has an entry-content ancestor
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tantek and if so - to not duplicate it in its own h1 outside the entry-content
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tantek e.g. in a stream context
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@xtof_fr @anthere y'a @thierrymarianne qui est rentré dans ta carto http://christopheducamp.com ()
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@xtof_fr Inspiration /by @anthere - stratégie #indieweb ()
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tantek my first comic post:
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tantek http://tantek.com/2013/149/b1/bayesian
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