Normally Kevin does these updates, but I wanted to take an opportunity to talk about how Documentation is doing from my perspective as a community manager. For the last 3 years or so, building communities of specialists has been my specialty. In my experience, communities on Stack Exchange have similar lifecycles:

  1. A new topic is introduced, a bunch of early adopters get excited about it and the first few days feel like a runaway train hurtling up and to the right.

  2. Reality begins to set in.The community is losing momentum. Folks wander off to do something else. Excitement dissipates and more people start looking for the exits.

  3. One of two things happen next: either the community slows to a virtual halt, or a handful of dedicated users get down to the real work of building a community.

As Shog9 showed, we passed the first stage months ago.

What's happened since launch?

Most of the work in a product's beta period aims to build the framework of community. For Stack Overflow Q&A, that framework consisted of questions, answers, voting, reputation, privileges (especially editing), curation and lightweight commenting. Those systems working in concert enable "a bunch of amateurs muddling along trying to do things together". Since Q&A is a resource most programmers use daily, we sometimes forget the struggle required to build the underlying software.

2016 has been about discovering and building the systems needed for user-contributed, example-first, Stack Overflow-integrated Documentation. Much of that work involves creating and testing hypotheses with actual users. It isn't quite science. But the critical element has always been your feedback — expressed explicitly on meta and implicitly via your actions.

While reputation seemed to work in the confined space of a private beta, it was abundantly clear at launch the reputation system didn't work. So we changed it. Twice. There's every chance we'll tweak it again, but the philosophy of rewarding work on Documentation roughly at the same rate as Q&A will remain. Currently, the median Documentation contributor has earned 7 points of reputation (up from 6 in September) compared to 10 points for the median outside of Docs. Since launch, less than 1% of Stack Overflow reputation has come from Documentation, which roughly coincides with activity. It's not a perfect system, but it seems reasonably consistent with the rest of Stack Overflow at the moment.

Unlike questions and answers, most contributions to Documentation are subject to review. Initially, we hoped that people would watch the tags they were interested in and that reviews would happen organically. We were wrong. After adding a global review queue (with 2.3k items!), we (re)discovered that some people just love to make tasks go away. So we added audits and review bans. It also seemed reasonable to give experienced users more influence on the queue, so we gave reviews from high-reputation users and silver tag badge holders more weight.

The public launch revealed bugs. Lots and lots of bugs. In fact the feedback has been a bit overwhelming. Many of the changes made (or planned) since beta have started in meta: reputation changes, review queue, rejection reasons, plagiarism warnings, improvement request refactoring, and a discussion area for example. We've done a lot in 2016 considering our team consists of 3 developers, a designer, and me, the resident cheerleader. It's inevitable that some important feature requests and bugs haven't been implemented. We'll be onboarding a dedicated product manager soon, who will help us prioritize future work. Kevin has done a solid job in the role, but he's been stretched too thin for too long.

What's next?

We aren't quite ready to roll out the final major piece of the system, which is a method of discussing changes and keeping track of those decisions. There has to be some way for people to talk about their policies and practices, and so we put a fair amount of effort in the R&D stage of the new "discussion" tab. I have interviewed a number of people who were given an early view of the static prototype. Those user tests revealed decisions we made that were less logical than we thought. This sort of feature is easy to get wrong, but I think we are on the right track. As with everything else, the real test will come when the feature is publicly available, so we’ll be ready to iterate on that as well.

Just this week, the executive team gave us a key metric for measuring success in the coming year: user growth. Obviously there’s a business reason for that goal, but it serendipitously benefits the quality of Documentation as well. As Eric Raymond notes, “Given enough eyeballs, all bugs are shallow.” Similarly, the more people who use Documentation to understand their code, learn a new feature or even answer questions on Stack Overflow, the more reliable the content will become.

There are a number of levers we can pull to give Documentation more pageviews. But we've been holding off on doing those things until the system for participating is solid. In large part it means handling feedback about particular Topics and Examples. Sometimes it's enough to say "this is confusing". More often, a user will need room to explain exactly what is confusing and talk about what changes might improve the situation. Meanwhile, it's been difficult for people who understand the system to guide those who don't. Meta is no substitute for comments right next to the content itself, so adding more eyeballs won't help until that piece of the puzzle is in place.

It's no secret we've been looking to Wikipedia for inspiration. Benjamin Mako Hill studied eight online encyclopedias and concluded:

Wikipedia offered low transaction costs to participation, and it de-emphasized the social ownership of content. Editing Wikipedia is easy, and instant, and virtually commitment-free. “You can come along and do a drive-by edit and never make a contribution again,” Hill pointed out. And the fact that it’s difficult to tell who wrote an article, or who edited it — rather than discouraging contribution, as you might assume — actually encouraged contributions, Hill found. “Low textual ownership resulted in more collaboration,” he put it.

We've resisted adding restrictions on new-user participation because Stack Overflow is built on "little tiny pieces of information". Even to this day, many good answers are given by people who don't care about Stack Overflow, but do care about some language feature, correcting misinformation or whatnot. The long-term quality of Documentation will depend on corrections, additions and clarifications from the people trying to use it.

With the software skeleton nearing completion, the real work of building a community is just beginning. On behalf of everyone on the Docs team, thank you for all of your help and advice in 2016; onward to 2017!

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One piece of advice I'd like to offer. The home page of documentation (That is clicking the documentation item in SO) is not welcoming. It needs to drive users in. When I see that page it irks me...there is so much potential to be had and its not being taken advantage of. It could be as simple as the "today in wikipedia history page": en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:On_this_day/Today Also look into faceted search and ways to engage the community. Currently it is not there. You could come up with some dynamic content based on tags I admire...Such and such added this topic.. – JonH yesterday
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@JonH For sure. We've discussed some of the things we'd like to do with the landing page that's not just "tiles for days", and it's definitely on the list of things we'll be exploring in detail in the coming year. – Adam Lear yesterday
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@AdamLear - Great but I wouldn't put that too far out into the year. That is critical if you want to build momentum. Right now its downhill and the "power users" have given up on documentation. To avoid new users as well as to have a method to win back the old guys you need this experience. – JonH yesterday
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The use of Wikipedia as a model is somewhat troubling. On one hand, each Wikipedia topic aims to be comprehensive as possible within the confines of a single page, while Documentation does not aim to duplicate existing documentation if it is of high quality. On the other hand, Documentation deals with a narrower range of topics, and with topics that have a generally more formal logic; which suggests that Documentation needs a higher entry bar than Wikipedia. – Zev Spitz yesterday
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@JonH: I've been envying the WIkipedia Main Page a lot lately and not just for Docs. It seems to me the endless, unstoppable stream of questions serves mostly to remind us that there is an endless, unstoppable stream of questions. It would really be lovely to give browsers (as opposed to people arriving via search) something more engaging. It also seems very doable in a short period of time. – Jon Ericson yesterday
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@JonEricson - I agree with that assessment minus all the ugliness...but you guys have good designers so that is a plus. – JonH yesterday
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Is anything being done to help ensure accuracy? I keep a pretty close eye on the Javascript section and I can't tell you how many times new users have contributed something that falls somewhere between misleading and outright wrong. Personally, while I have benefited from the reputation, I think that newer users are mostly interested in getting the reputation which leads me to distrust anything written in Docs. As it stands, I never see myself consulting Docs for information. – Mike C yesterday
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@MikeC: Do you reject or rollback proposed changes that make Documentation worse? Either of those actions will protect existing content and prevent users from earning reputation. – Jon Ericson yesterday
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@JonEricson I do but I'm only one man fighting a sea of inaccuracy. – Mike C yesterday
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@KevinB I suppose that's true. If Docs is aimed at newer programmers then right now I feel like it's the blind leading the blind. – Mike C yesterday
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@MikeC: Yes. That sense of disconnectedness is not uncommon and it's entirely our fault. We really needed to have better collaboration/discussion tools from the beginning. On the plus side, I think the discussion tab will work better for us having seen the problem writ large. – Jon Ericson yesterday
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What one could consider a major deterrent is the fact that when you spend hours on creating a new topic with examples, introduction etc. You get 2 rep points when it gets approved, and it gets approved as an "Edit". – zanderwar yesterday
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@MikeC: I think one of the major uses for Docs for experienced people is as a replacement for canonical answers, since it's part of SO. If/when Docs becomes good enough, it would be useful to allow questions to be closed as duplicates of examples from Documentation. Or at least as something you can link to from an answer with confidence that the link won't go dead as long as SO itself is still there. So you don't have to duplicate the explanation of a side topic in an answer, and can summarize only enough that people who already understand that part won't have to click the link. – Peter Cordes yesterday
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Did someone really vote to close as "unclear what they are asking"? Newsflash they are not asking anything it's an update from the documentation team, that is all. – Lankymart 23 hours ago
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@Lankymart: One might almost imagine that Q&A isn't the best format for announcements. – Jon Ericson 17 hours ago

One of two things happen next: either the community slows to a virtual halt, or a handful of dedicated users get down to the real work of building a community.

I fail to see a path forward that can reasonably be expected to accomplish this. Why?

A place for discussion is a necessary element for this. But it is not sufficient. You need to get a handful of users who are both knowledgable and motivated to build documentation and a community.

And I don't see that happening. Not with Docs.SO as it currently stands or is likely to stand in the immediate future. I can only speak for myself, but I imagine that others will agree with me on these statements:

I do not believe in Docs.SO.

I do not believe that Tag/Topic/Example is a sufficient categorization mechanism, even for example-focused documentation. I do not understand what "Topic" means or how much stuff should be in one. I do not believe that examples ought to be arbitrarily connected to each other, such that editing supposedly distinct examples should be considered a single edit.

Indeed, even if its current implementation were good, that wouldn't be enough. Because I do not believe in the very foundational idea of Docs.SO: that example-focused documentation can be used to create good, useful, and comprehensive documentation for a system of significant complexity.

I believe in neither the idea behind Docs.SO as a means for creating effective documentation, nor the current implementation of that idea. Docs.SO to me seems firmly aimed in the wrong direction, both in implementation and in concept.

I cannot say how many people agree with me on these statements. However, the fact that most experts appear to have deserted Docs.SO within weeks of its deployment suggest that I am probably not alone in these criticisms. Statements from others also suggest that I'm probably not alone.

So what exactly is the benefit for experts to contribute to Docs.SO? They have to deal with a sub-standard mechanism for creating information (seriously, MediaWiki is better). They have to force their information into a design and organization scheme that you have arbitrarily imposed on them, instead of creating one that best fits the content being documented. And thanks to reputation, there is more of an incentive to post bad or plagiarized stuff than there is to focus on quality documentation.

What exactly are the advantages for using Docs.SO as a platform for creating documentation? What is the motivation for putting this stuff here, instead of literally anywhere else?

The "software skeleton" is precisely what is responsible for making Docs.SO unattractive to expert users. That it is "nearing completion" merely suggests that these flaws will never be fixed, that they're not considered "bugs" but "features".

So I cannot see how it is reasonable to expect experts to appear who are willing to "get down to the real work of building a community", given that the tools they have are so poor.

No matter how much it gets ignored, the fact remains that the Emperor is still naked.

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Maybe SO Docs is just built for a different audience. I'm not sure what that audience is, but that's the only reason i could see SO to still be pushing it. – Kevin B yesterday
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Obviously, I respectfully disagree. I think the point we depart ways is in our disagreement over whether a community will form around it as a community formed around Q&A. As I explain in the opening paragraph, I don't think we can know for sure what direction the community is going to take from observing the reaction to launch. People will give up on even successful communities during the early days. Unfortunately, if you don't believe in example-first documentation, there's really nothing I can do to change your mind. We'll just have to see what happens next. – Jon Ericson yesterday
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Nicol i have been through a lot of the beta listening to you. I agree with most of the things you say but what gets me is you dont offer any further resolution or do you even have a resolution? Im not knocking you, I think your posts show you care and you are a smart person. My question is how about stating what changes youd like to see rather than the criticism you have right now? – JonH yesterday
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@JonEricson: "As I explain in the opening paragraph, I don't think we can know for sure what direction the community is going to take from observing the reaction to launch." You may not be able to say for certain which way things will go. But do you have a basis for saying that things are moving in a positive direction? Because I don't see any evidence that people are out there salivating at the thought of contributing to Docs.SO if it only had a discussion system. – Nicol Bolas yesterday
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I still think rep should be removed ive been against it for quite some time. – JonH yesterday
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@JonEricson Re: drawing comparisons between Q&A and Docs. When Stack Overflow Q&A became a thing, people wanted programming Q&A. It was something that was seriously lacking from the internet. A hole worth filling, if you will. No one is going around saying "We need a place for examples first user contributed documentation!" It is not a hole that is in desperate need of filling. – Tiny Giant yesterday
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@JonEricson for the people who know those technologies to decide - if Docs was a free-format wiki, I'd agree with your laissez-faire approach. But you built a system that (to me) strongly embodies cookbooks, with the focus on small code snippets, the lack of high-level organization, and sorting by voting rather than by logical order. Telling us to build whatever we want within Docs feels like saying we can have any color we like, so long as it's black. – Jeffrey Bosboom yesterday
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That last comment is key, @Jon - with the caveat that this could still fail of course. Thus far we've been aiming at a somewhat under-served niche in terms of functionality, but whether that's under-served because folks have overlooked it or under-served because it's simply far less important than other features remains to be seen; this is yet another attempt at adding structure to a wiki, something folks have been stabbing at from various angles for 20 years (including 8 years of Stack Overflow); a few have succeeded, a lot have not. – Shog9 yesterday
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@JonEricson: "So I hope you understand why I'm not terribly worried about the apparent disinterest." Your experience with SO and mine are quite different. Yes, I joined up some time past beta, but my experience with forums and other things were very much not "good to me". And my preference for SO was not due to its content, but due to its structure, the way it focused interaction in a productive way. The way it actively fought against discussion and dithering. It was attractive by design, not because of what people did with it. Docs.SO is not that. – Nicol Bolas yesterday
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@JonEricson - The introduction of Docs doesn't ease "the difficulty people have transitioning from consumer to producer" any more than you turn a moviegoer into a filmmaker by putting an NLE app on their smartphone, or turn a homeowner into an architect by throwing a pencil at them, or turn a murderer into a judge by hauling them into a courtroom. Producing good documentation requires actual skills in language, writing, organization, and more, not to mention experience, proper tools, and so on, none of which Docs provides. – TigerhawkT3 yesterday
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@TigerhawkT3: Personally, I think the difference between what SO faced then and what Docs.SO faces now is really simple: nobody believes in Docs.SO. You see very few posts that are wholly in support of the current direction of Docs.SO. By contrast, while SO had its critics in the beginning, it also had evangelists. People who weren't Joel&Jeff, but ordinary users who still believed in its mission of using Q&A to build a knowledgebase. Where are the true believers in Docs.SO? If Docs.SO is such a good idea, why is nobody defending it who isn't on the staff? – Nicol Bolas yesterday
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I'm willing to give example-based documentation a chance, but for as long as it's still called Documentation, people are going to continue treating it like they're writing their own manuals, not contributing to a repository of self-contained examples. And this is a separate issue from experts not wanting to deal with terrible contributions from people who have no idea what they're talking about - we already have enough of a problem with people spreading misinformation in Q&A. – BoltClock yesterday
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@BoltClock: "but for as long as it's still called Documentation, ... not contributing to a repository of self-contained examples" The fact that the examples are considered sub-sections of the topic as a whole doesn't help promote the idea that the examples are "self-contained". Nor does the fact that we order examples based on voting patterns. – Nicol Bolas yesterday
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@Nicol Bolas: Indeed. Even if I get behind it as a concept, it's still poorly implemented. – BoltClock yesterday
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If averages/bad users can reviews, they will approve average/bad content and add their own waiting for approbation of their "pairs". This need to be more strict, by definition of the concept of Documentation. – Walfrat 19 hours ago

I've said a couple times that the Docs format doesn't grab me personally.

It would be nice to see it succeed, though, with high quality correct examples and useful summaries of things. Especially if we can make use of the fact that it's part of SO itself, so use Docs links in answers without as much extraction of text from the link (because link-rot won't happen).

Maybe also closing questions as duplicates of something answered by a doc, for cases where a doc is a better fit than a canonical Q&A.


I don't get excited about overwhelming tasks, so I don't think I'll be one of those pioneers, though.

Hopefully that's just me and other people aren't so put off by a gigantic task like documenting [x86] in general, with no specific question. To me, it just feels like un-fun work compared to writing answers.


I did write one solid example for docs (as well as minor changes to some others). I approved the initial version posted by a new user since it looked ok, but then ended up rewriting nearly every paragraph with better / different explanations and more detail, and every line of code with more / different comments. It was kind of frustrating the whole time because the more I did, the more I felt like I shouldn't have approved the original in the first place.

And the whole time I had no idea of the background of the reader. i.e. will they know C while learning asm? Will they know about POSIX system calls? I'm sure this has been discussed before, but for me the lack of a question as context leaves so many things open-ended that it's impossible to keep anything short when writing docs, so it's a difficult struggle between explaining everything vs. keeping it short enough to be useful.


I might well find myself interested in doing something if the overall quality wasn't so low. Right now I feel like one high-quality example would just be a drop in the bucket, and not be sufficient. Also, if the rest of docs doesn't explain other topics well, then I have nothing to build on, and have to explain every concept I mention.

All of these things make the thought of writing more docs feel like a daunting task that I don't want to take on. That's how I personally feel when I've tried to motivate myself to go have a look at docs. Rational arguments don't seem to work very well in convincing my (literally) ADHD brain that I should just get something done even if I can't finish in one sitting.

What really matters to me is that I enjoy the time I spend on it, and that hasn't been the case for much of the short time I've spent on Docs. It's been more like "there's so much bad stuff here that needs fixing" all the time.


This shouldn't stop other people from enjoying the time they spend on docs. Almost everything I've said is more about what makes me tick and what my personal experience has been. Hopefully that helps explain part of how I wandered off in step 2.

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"To me, it just feels like un-fun work" - That's because it is work. – TigerhawkT3 22 hours ago
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For me, a related concern is that if I did take the time to contribute high-quality content to Docs, I'd want to take advantage of that and link to it. But at its current state, I wouldn't want to point anyone there because most of what they'll find there is of exceptionally low quality, if not outright wrong. Sending them there would be a net disservice because once they navigated beyond my single hand-picked example, they'd be getting bad information. I don't want to be responsible for that, I don't want to have my name associated with that, and I don't think that is helpful. – Cody Gray 20 hours ago
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@CodyGray perhaps even more importantly, since there's no ownership and no editorial control, your example could be deleted or (worse) edited into garbage at any moment, making your links to it even more harmful and pointless. – Mark Amery 17 hours ago
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I think you hit upon the critical problem: when writing an answer, you have a particular audience in mind. That is to say, the asker is a representative of some larger group of people with similar experience. But when there's no question, who are you writing for. (By the way, this is really the reason we close questions as "too broad".) My guess is that the answer will be different for every tag and perhaps even every topic. This is why I believe the discussion mechanism is so critical. Lot's of stuff to chew on in this answer. Thank you. – Jon Ericson 17 hours ago

The single biggest challenge that Docs still faces is not discussion of what's in there, it's policing what's been done. In fact, that's the crux of all of the gripes with Docs. Reading the myriad rants on it, it's the recurring theme.

  • Random new guy LOVES a tutorial and he wants to share it with everyone, so he rolls up a new Topic/Example and recreates it within Docs, not realizing he's promulgating bad coding practices because the tutorial he found is 6 years old. Slips through the cracks and hangs out for months or years, merrily allowing bad coding practices to propagate
  • A veteran user writes a long and detailed Example for a Topic. One day, he looks to link to it and, after some 30 minutes of looking around (there's no notices when this happens and it falls out of all your Docs lists), realizes that 4 users with a combined reputation of less than 1000 have deleted the entire Topic
  • Another random new guy with a pocketful of rep decides a well written article needs to include this one edge case. While he's in there, he makes several other confusing edits. It's approved by 3 people who don't even have a score in that tag.

This brings up my second point. All of the above are infuriating to people who care about coding and it highlights a philosophy conflict between Q&A and Docs: ownership. If I post a Q or A, I own it. If someone edits it, I get a notice. Deletion is hard and rare. Docs is fast and loose. You don't get notified of ANYTHING except rep gain. Deletion is far easier and much more common. You don't own it and that's not a bug, that's a feature.

It's no secret we've been looking to Wikipedia for inspiration.

You might not know this, but in academic circles they actually tell you to not cite Wikipedia (emphasis mine)

There's nothing more convenient than Wikipedia if you're looking for some quick information, and when the stakes are low (you need a piece of information to settle a bet with your roommate, or you want to get a basic sense of what something means before starting more in-depth research), you may get what you need from Wikipedia. In fact, some instructors may advise their students to read entries for scientific concepts on Wikipedia as a way to begin understanding those concepts.

Nevertheless, when you're doing academic research, you should be extremely cautious about using Wikipedia. As its own disclaimer states, information on Wikipedia is contributed by anyone who wants to post material, and the expertise of the posters is not taken into consideration. Users may be reading information that is outdated or that has been posted by someone who is not an expert in the field or by someone who wishes to provide misinformation. (Case in point: Four years ago, an Expos student who was writing a paper about the limitations of Wikipedia posted a fictional entry for himself, stating that he was the mayor of a small town in China. Four years later, if you type in his name, or if you do a subject search on Wikipedia for mayors of towns in China, you will still find this fictional entry.) Some information on Wikipedia may well be accurate, but because experts do not review the site's entries, there is a considerable risk in relying on this source for your essays.

So, in this sense, SO has successfully created its own Wikipedia for software documentation. That success also contains all of the flaws as well. Worse, people are using it to write real software, not academic papers. Then they come back to Q&A with these bad practices, where they, in some cases, get smacked down hard for bad things they learned in Docs.

This all having been said, I see the point of Docs. I see where it can be something that is an asset. But the process here has soured a lot of people who thought so too at one point and the process has taught them differently. I'm glad a CM posted this because this is where Docs needs a lot of work. Docs needs to be tightened up some and then you're going to have to re-sell this to the people who walked away.

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To be fair, this problem also somewhat exists in Q&A with highly upvoted factually incorrect answers, and it's impossible to get them deleted without the owner being involved. – Stijn 19 hours ago
    
I feel you phrased my point in a better way, but I am 100% with you on retaining ownership (and deciding when to share it, as I posted on my answer). – Oleg 18 hours ago
    
@Stijn You can delete things in Q&A with community involvement. SOCVR is an example of a place that can get that kind of thing done with enough agreement. – Machavity 18 hours ago
    
@Machavity You cannot vote to delete a positively scored answer as a regular member. And you can't downvote with a bunch of people to make it eligible for deletion when it has 100+ score. – Stijn 18 hours ago
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@Stijn You are probably talking about exceptions not the norm. There is no such a thing as a perfect system, but a system that minimizes false positives. You can't pivot your decisions around edge cases. – Oleg 18 hours ago
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"Deletion is far easier and much more common." I'm sure that this has to be done to revert the swats of "Random new guy LOVES a tutorial and he wants to share it with everyone" cases. I've rarely (aka never have) seen a good example getting deleted. – Braiam 18 hours ago
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Yes to all of this. This is exactly why, after a few concerted efforts to contribute meaningfully to Documentation, I gave up. I only have so much time, and I don’t want to spend all of it correcting what Mike C so aptly called a “sea of inaccuracy.” There just aren’t enough experts to keep things clean. Ownership is of mild importance to me compared to knowing I’ve contributed to a good work that continues to be good. – VGR 18 hours ago

I kinda feel like the primary problems with SO Documentation are:

  1. Search. You often can't find what you are looking for other than by going to the topic it is in and scrolling. We need to be able to find examples very quickly, which has a lot to do with how examples are formulated/named, but we also need to somehow be able to structure them in such a way that helps with the searching. For example, If searching for a javascript example related to arrays, you should be able to find it by searching , , and then the method name. Currently, if you search sodocs with sitesearch in google, that only takes you to the topic in most cases that I've tested.

  2. Unclear Intent. When you look at various documentation topics, it is unclear what documentation is actually supposed to look like on SO. Kevin and Jon keep saying that this is on purpose and that each tag should instead focus on what each tag needs. This is very unclear, and isn't being followed in my opinion because the javascript tag (and many of the other popular ones) do not need methods to be documented the way they currently are, the official docs already cover that quite well. The SO Docs team keeps saying it should be X, but we keep getting Y and noone is moving to fix it. The discussion feature is supposedly going to fix this, but... I don't see how that could possibly fix it. We're just going to argue over what the SO Docs team intended so docs to look like. Maybe I'll be proven wrong.

  3. Not well integrated with Q/A yet. If there was one single thing that would change my view on SO Docs, it would be being able to use it to close these often asked but never dupe closed questions. If this was allowed, #2's problem above would make more sense, and we'd simply document everything, regardless of whether the official docs cover it because it would allow us to close more questions (assuming we were actually able to find the examples... see #1.)

The Discussion feature is certainly a step in the right direction, I just don't think we have been given enough direction on what SO Docs is actually meant to be.

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I agree with all three points. #2 is my responsibility, but I can't do it alone. I certainly don't have the first idea of what is lacking in existing JavaScript documentation. It's also impossible to have an effective discussion here on meta when all the work being done on the content is somewhere else. The discussion tab is a necessary, but not sufficient, condition of success. – Jon Ericson 15 hours ago

There seems (to me) to be a couple strong contradictions between what is quoted as the key to making docs work and the intentions displayed. Maybe these examples should be followed? Or, if the community feels this is the right direction, other manifestos should be quoted.

A) First, the statement that "the philosophy of rewarding work on Documentation [...] as Q&A will remain."

Rewarding means ownership of content, especially in the way it is functioning right now. All we've been doing is determining how much of a documentation entry "belongs" to each of its authors.

Sure, the goal of this is gamification, i.e. encouraging participation with reputation. However, do collaborative efforts work with the same stimuli than competing answers? The quote you use yourself says quite the opposite:

Wikipedia [...] de-emphasized the social ownership of content. [...] The fact that it’s difficult to tell who wrote an article, or who edited it — rather than discouraging contribution, as you might assume — actually encouraged contributions, Hill found. “Low textual ownership resulted in more collaboration,” he put it.

So I would postulate another way of rewarding participation in docs should be studied. Or none at all?

B) Then, sticking to “given enough eyeballs, all bugs are shallow” would mean making docs as accessible as possible to users.

I see search engines may (now?) index docs, however the search functionality is still pretty poor. And since docs pages don't score so high on Google (yet?), that means few eyeballs, thus few real "drive-bys".

The tendency to encourage high-rep users disproportionately and keeping the "beta" sticker on the docs link are so many signs that you're doing "cathedral building", as is theorized by Eric Raymond in the very page you link.

I feel that as long as we don't really have a crowd of end-users on docs (that is, people who come to get information, not reputation) we won't get out of this limbo.

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My position on reputation is somewhat complex. I think it works best when it augments intrinsic motivation and simply doesn't work longterm as the sole motivation. One of the problems on Wikipedia right now is that there are fewer and fewer active editors. We think a reputation system helps some people stick with SO and is one of the reasons we still see growth in active users. You make an astute point about end-users. I think Docs is less fun (even not fun) because it's hard to see how it helps people right now. – Jon Ericson 15 hours ago
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Interesting read on in-/ex-trinsic motivation @JonEricson. But my point stands: if the key takeaway from Wikipedia is that less authorship brings more collaborators, then we need to find a a reward system that doesn't rely on authorship (e.g. fixed rewards, like the edits now for <2K on Q&A, I'm sure we can be creative and gamify this in plenty different ways). Or alternately, drop the collaborative part, and revert to competing examples with unique authorship. That is, the answers of the Q&A model. But this in-between isn't working out. – Cimbali 13 hours ago

I do like that the SO team is very open to our feedback and that's why I am gonna post my two cents. It's my personal view and in no way tries to be representative of the whole community.

  • I like the idea of Docs as examples first, but as of now it is not clear if that is the official direction. Many posts become endless tutorials, often of very low quality and full of duplication.
  • By suggesting that

    As Eric Raymond notes, “Given enough eyeballs, all bugs are shallow.”

    and this will gradually improve the quality akin to the Wikipedia model is wrong. If there is no unified direction, people will just keep adding rather than improving.

  • With the discussion feature, things might get better, yet you will need someone that has time and interest in discussing before actually creating!

  • This model unsustainable. It's implementation puts it in competition with official documentations, yet the SO team tries to keep alive the idea of examples.

  • A community-based knowledge hub can thrive if there is a missing gap, and that was the case of Wikipedia. With official documentations, paid for, scrutinized by experts, uniformly written, there is no space for community based documentation.

My strong view

My view embeds the points above.

I want to write concise, clear and specialized examples that are not covered by official docs. I do not want my example to be f***d with overnight, and I do not want to discuss about it before I do it. If you like my example, you will upvote it. If not, nobody will ever see it again. You can comment on it, and I might decide to amend it but I want full authorship of my examples.

This is why, I will probably stick with Q&A, because I mostly retain the authorship of my answers although I do not decide the topic.

From a Wikipedia point-of-view, if the author is the only one retaining the ownership, how can things improve? Well, by the arguments of large numbers, you will find an author that wanted to contribute with the same example and he might decide to comment on the existing example. The original author might then like the comment and share ownership over the example to allow edits.

People will start having that feel of pride in their contribution, and not the current, "oh geez, why!? it was good yesterday...".

Duplication can be dealt with voted deletions or suggested merges by recognized authors.

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Unless I misunderstood the purpose of Documentation, the goal is to encourage collaboration. Programmers try to avoid reinventing the wheel. Documentation is more of a moving target than Q&A questions, and it's hard to know everything about a topic. If we can't collaborate if you make a single mistake, then we have to recreate your example. You as an individual might respond to comments, but many people wont and it would slow things down to require so much moderator intervention. – DonyorM 20 hours ago
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I've seen this quote thrown around a couple of times, but no one has yet mentioned that it's been repeatedly disproven. Heartbleed was the most recent example. There was a massive security bug in OpenSSL's cryptography library that, although it must have been seen thousands of times by otherwise competent programmers, given the popularity of this library, nobody caught the bug. I don't know, maybe ESR would say this isn't "enough", but if the required number of eyeballs is too large, it makes the principle meaningless. – Cody Gray 20 hours ago
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@DonyorM By your own argument " Programmers try to avoid reinventing the wheel", Docs should not exist then. My point is that, is it worth throwing 100 edits at bad content or a couple on good one? With my model, the bad content will just not get upvoted, and yes, people will create a better example. There is no need for moderators to polish bad examples, those will eventually get deled or forgotten forever. – Oleg 19 hours ago
    
@Oleg: "There is no need for moderators to polish bad examples, those will eventually get deled or forgotten forever." This assumes that 1) Topics can have an infinite number of examples. They cannot do so currently. 2) Examples were wholly distinct from other examples on the same topic. They currently are not. 3) Examples on the same topic meaningfully compete with each other, such that one example could reasonably be considered "better" than another. Since "topic" has no definition that would create such meaningful competition, that is currently not the case. – Nicol Bolas 18 hours ago
    
@Oleg: "My point is that, is it worth throwing 100 edits at bad content or a couple on good one?" If it weren't, why do we allow it to happen in Q&A? We give experienced users unrestricted editing rights to questions and answers for precisely this reason: so that errors can be corrected and content improved. – Nicol Bolas 18 hours ago
    
@NicolBolas I dislike the topic organization and do not think it makes it easier to search stuff. You should read my view as abstracted from the current Docs structure. Your second point can be addressed with the recognized authors that I suggest. How you define this category is a matter of fine tuning. What I want to avoid, is to see my contribution being worsened by the 100 edits, which is something that has happened and led me to abandon Docs. – Oleg 18 hours ago
    
@Oleg: "What I want to avoid, is to see my contribution being worsened by the 100 edits" That's the nature of any collaboratively edited platform: someone can come along and make a change that you consider to be worse. Your post is basically saying that collaborative editing is the great flaw of Docs.SO; I can't really agree. Collaborative editing may not be your thing, but I contest the idea that experts in general are warded off by the very idea. There are plenty of collaboratively edited bags of info things out there which experts contribute to. – Nicol Bolas 18 hours ago
    
@NicolBolas Second line of my post: "It's my personal view and in no way tries to be representative of the whole community.". I think collaborative docs has no place because official docs have stronger incentives, and they are already there. Also, I am happy if experts contribute. As of now, there is no way to identify experts reliably. – Oleg 18 hours ago
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It sounds like you are happy enough to continue answering questions which is perfectly fine. It's our job to build the product to attract contributors. (And to be clear, we don't expect all of our contributors on Docs will want to answer questions.) If we fail, it will be pretty clear in 2017. By all means, don't do something you don't enjoy. Especially don't give up doing something you do enjoy. – Jon Ericson 16 hours ago
    
@JonEricson Thanks, and by no means I wish docs to fail. On the contrary, I had high expectations, especially the example based approach sounded very good. Also, the potential to present a single interface across different languages is also very appealing (It took me time to understand the standard in man pages...). I also wanted to have the luxury to decide the topic of my answer, but was not ready to endure the frustration from low quality edits to my own creations. – Oleg 15 hours ago
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Oleg's point about ownership is a good one. If you have a minor change (i.e. typo, formatting convention, etc.), then you can propose the edit to the original content (a la Q&A edits), otherwise write a new example and let the community identify the most correct/helpful content. – Gordon Bean 12 hours ago

Just wanted to share how I envision a stackoverflow documentation.

How to contribute to a documentation topic?

Everything about stackoverflow is questions / answers and it's great. Why not use the same thing for documentation?

Community answer nearly got it right, except for the fact that it suppressed all the reputation... With a little tweak it could be great. For example, let's say that you have a topic that you want documentation on, you would do :

  1. Create a documentation topic : like a normal question except that the documentation result will be put in the question body
  2. Let people answer this question like they would do normally and earn reputation for their answer.
  3. Then take all the good part in the answers provided and build the documentation answer (directly in the question body)

Just take a moment to consider how hard it is to contribute to an unknown tag with the current documentation system compare to this one above. You could now start topic about anything, good topic would receive points and bad topic would fall into oblivion, exactly like QA.

Next you need organization

Being able to start a documentation topic about anything is a great start but to get something useful you need to be able to organize them. Whether I want to build a quick tutorial or a reference manual, I will need a way to organize the topics in a logical order.

The current system is very lacking on that front. We need to be able to organize the topics how we want. It could be as simple as a side menu for all the topics that are linked together.

So, a "documentation" would just be a group of ordered documentation topic and you could create many "documentations" to address many different needs.

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So at first I thought the 'Q&A first, then to Docs' model would do a better job of generating documentation that someone actually needs because it's tied to an actual question. But then I realized, once you get a good canonical Q&A, you're already done; moving it to Docs is just extra work. – Jeffrey Bosboom 8 hours ago

"Too many cooks spoil the broth" - the famous saying.

The main difference between Documentation and Wikipedia is that the latter has the established authority system. It is overly-bureaucratized, but it works. And so you mostly can trust the information from Wikipedia - the controversial cases gets judged and fixed.

Unlike that, Documentation is ruled by the same mob as the mother site. It means no one can guarantee that some day the information won't be spoiled, deliberately or accidentally, and left unnoticed. All the proposals to get the knowledgeable members more authority are steadily torpedoed on Meta. So, this is the policy, and won't be changed.

Personally, I went to despair after few cases that told me that Stack Overflow is not suitable for sharing knowledge.

  • The first one was my own question that was spoiled by the ignorant user - so I cannot link to this post anymore. Your community scolded me when I tried to get rid of the nuisance. Ok, I can write another post and use this one (until someone will spoil it in turn). But yet the old one remains in place, spreading mis-knowledge.
  • The second one was the most upvoted answer for the most upvoted question in the tag, that was spoiled by some enthusiast. It went unnoticed for half a year, because, you know, nobody cares. And the only person who would keep a constant eye on this post, was banned.

So I think that although Stack Overflow will remain de facto a forum for quick and dirty answers to "fix my code for me" questions, thanks to gamification system, the attempt to fix the initial design flaw by introducing Documentation will fail too. One professional cannot stand against a dozen enthusiasts smelling gamification points.

No doubts that a large community will be developed - people are always weak for the virtual stuff like points, badges and hats. But the main site didn't taught you the lesson that the quantity doesn't mean the quality.

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