Wikipedia:No original research/Noticeboard

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Fox McCloud's legs - were they amputated?

@Idazmi:

The question is whether you can use artwork alone to argue whether a fictional character (Fox McCloud) had his legs removed despite statements from the Star Fox's programmer (Dylan Cuthbert) and the game's main producer (Shigeru Miyamoto) saying the legs were not amputated. Please see the thread at: Talk:Fox_McCloud#Legs_not_prosthetic WhisperToMe (talk) 07:15, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

Nope, interpreting images to reach a contentious conclusion is definitely SYNTH. There are some clearly obvious things you can pull (he's a fox, he's orange-colored) but to try to argue his size on a box cover is due to amputation is waaaaay out of line. --MASEM (t) 19:12, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

Completely agree with Masem. Sergecross73 msg me 14:19, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

Agree with Masem. Darkness Shines (talk) 14:22, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

A Wikipedia editor making this call would be OR (though perhaps stating they are metallic looking would be stating the obvious?). Relying on sources that make this call, possibly qualifying this (e.g. according to...), e.g. - [1] [2] [3] would not be OR.Icewhiz (talk) 14:40, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

Ignoring the RS-ness of those sources, we'd first would have to state that "According to so-and-so, Fox's legs appear amputated..." with those sources. But let's add the fact that two of the people directly involved with the game's development have said otherwise - even if their statements come from over Twitter or other unreliable sources. It's the type of case that this shouldn't even be included unless a lot of RS carried the misinformation and we wanted to use the involved people's statements to dismiss that misinformation. But that's just not what's happening here, its a silly fringe theory that we don't need to give credence to. --MASEM (t) 15:26, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

It's beyond a FRINGE theory - from a brief look here it seems this theory is all over the place - including a hip-hop artist who lost his foot referring to this. RSness for video games is an issue in general, and I agree that editors should be interpreting images by themselves, however this is a fan (and possibly Nintendo originally back in the 90s) theory of some weight.Icewhiz (talk) 16:11, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

Having looked, I found [4] which is an RS for us and sufficient to mention the amputation being a fan theory that (as of 2013) never was commented on by Nintendo, but since debunked by the creators over Twitter. --MASEM (t) 16:20, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

I wouldn't use debunk to describe fictional to begin with - it is difficult to debunk a fictional detail - however other than that we're agreed.Icewhiz (talk) 16:33, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

User:Idazmi added back the robotic legs they to the article. I don't think this is good form as he discussion is still going on. IMO it's full of OR. @Icewhiz:@Sergecross73:@Masem: - I am in favor of a single sentence about this, but he's insisting on saying the robotic leg theory is true, which is out of line. WhisperToMe (talk) 00:01, 9 December 2017 (UTC)

polyandry in Islam

On page of polyandry, original research is used which is not contained in the source. The source does not state that a woman can hove more than one husband at the same time, as per the definition of polyandry. But state that after dissolution of marriage and after ensuring that she is not pregnant she can marry. I have also explained on the talk page of polyandry but an editor idunious refuses to listen. Please help.for further discussion xplaination see talk page of polyand y. Source is online, anyone can see. Smatrah (talk) 12:09, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

Ignore him, see when readers disagree they will check the talkpage and see that this is a name-fed claim (someones position which can't be backed). If you continue to revert him, you will be punished for nothing. Does not worth it really, main-pages change regularly, the important is that you showed the claim does not stand in talkpage (where no one will revert you). Yaḥyā ‎ (talk) 20:29, 4 December 2017 (UTC)

Both editors have probably crossed the line in to edit-warring, but I agree that this looks like original research. I have no idea about the overall quality of the translation being cited, but the quote looks pretty inscrutable to me. Regardless, this is a primary source, and it's not obvious from reading it that it is an endorsement of polyandry. Editors would need a good quality secondary source to support a claim about the practice of polyandry and/or to make anything more than a patently obvious interpretation of a text. Nblund ^talk 00:04, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

I believe you have gotten users mixed up. Strange that all three of you seem to have made that mistake. First of all, it is not a primary source. The paragraph does not cite the original source, but the interpretation by the scholar. Besides, I have now added a source to verify the matter, which seems to resolve the issue. Gammalflamma (talk) 06:34, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

It doesn't resolve the issue, really. I agree that this probably refers to marriage, but (as other editors have noted) its not clear whether this would qualify as polyandry or if it would be something closer to annulling a previous marriage. I can't find any source that says that this passage endorses polyandry. You need to find a reliable source for that interpretation. Nblund ^talk 14:16, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

[5]

Here is a source that is extremely clear on the issue. It says that the meaning is, you are allowed to marry women who are already married, just as stated in the paragraph. It also clearly states that it is an exception to the rule forbidding marriage to married women. It also clearly states that it is about marriage - not about carnal knowledge. [6] I do understand that this issue is a difficult one to deal with. Not liking a fact is however not a valid reason to exclude it from Wikipedia. Gammalflamma (talk) 16:56, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

""Also (prohibited are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess" From this verse, it is clear that one can marry women who are already married if they constitute those from what your right hands possess (taken captive). Again, focus is on marriage, not sex for lust and they have to believing captives (Not pagans). See 4.25 above. (Continued 004.024) "...Thus has God ordained (Prohibitions) against you: Except for these, all others are lawful, provided ye seek (them in marriage) with gifts from your property,- desiring chastity, not lust, seeing that ye derive benefit from them, give them their dowers as prescribed (Arabic: faatuhunna ujurahunna faridatan); but if, after a dower is prescribed, agree mutually, there is no blame on you, and God is All-knowing, All-wise" This verse makes it clear that all married women are forbidden apart from a specific exception. Exception:Those women who are married but have come to be captured or possessed (Ma Malakat Amanakum) are lawful are in marriage. Note this exception. But the question still remains - lawful to one in what way? The rest of the verse clearly states that all women (including the exception - Right hands possess) have to be married (in wedlock). The legality being wedlock. Note the Arabic term: faatuhunna ujurahunna faridatan (give them their bridal due as obligation). It is clear therefore that the intention is of wedlock not of fornication, or lust. This seals the fate of sex with women from the category of 'right hands possess' outside marriage. These women are only lawful to one in marriage."Gammalflamma (talk) 17:01, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

I would also like to refer to this quote: "There is disagreement, however, among jurists as to what should be done if both husband and wife have been taken captive together. Abu Hanifah and the jurists of his school are of the opinion that their marriage should remain intact. Malik and Shafi'i, on the other hand, argue that their matrimonial contract should be rendered void." (Tafhimat, vol. 2, pp. 366-84, and Rasai'il wa Masa'il, 6th edition, Lahore, 1976, vol. 3, pp. 102-4.) As you can see, there are scholars who claim that even with permission granted to marry married women who are captives of war, these women could still keep their primary husband. Gammalflamma (talk) 17:13, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

You don't seem to be reading the dispute: I'm not questioning whether the passage refers to marriage, I'm questioning whether any source would call this "polyandry". Would the previous marriage still be legally binding? Would children conceived with the previous husband be considered legitimate? The passage doesn't say and the commentary doesn't say. I can point to several academics who note that Islamic law and custom prohibit polyandry. For example: "Polyandry, or marrying more than one husband, is not permitted to maintain the children’s lineage for purposes of inheritance and protect children’s rights as heirs".

I can't find a single source that describes Islam as accepting polyandry in some situations. Nblund ^talk 17:19, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

You don't seem to read the quotes. All parts of the paragraph have been proven. It is forbidden to marry a married woman in Islam. There is one exception - if the married woman is in your possession, then you can marry her even if she is married before. There is a difference of opinion if the woman is to be separated from her first husband in such cases, which means that some say she was not separated from her first husband. QED. Polyandry is a term for a women who is married to more than one man. Or, as is stated in the article "In its broadest use, polyandry refers to sexual relations with multiple males within or without marriage.". The sources here given prove that Islam allows a married woman to be married again. It proves that not all scholars say that the woman was separated from her first husband when this happened. The article is about Polyandry and the section is about polyandry - in any sense - occurring in religious context. This has been proven here. What a muslim husband would call it is not relevant. Idunius (talk) 18:23, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

[7] Yaḥyā ‎ (talk) 18:41, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

Can I assume good faith and interpret that as conceding the point, after having considered arguments and sources above? Idunius (talk) 19:05, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘Being "married again" is different from being married to multiple people simultaneously. The former is called serial monogamy, the latter would be polygamy. Reliable academic sources say that Islam prohibits polyandry, as far as I can tell, none of those academic sources mention this passage being an exception to that rule. If you can find a source that does mention that this is an exception, then cite it and we can move on. Otherwise, this is OR. Regarding the commentary quoted above, it appears to have left out the preceding sentence. The full quote seems to support the notion that the previous marriage would ordinarily be nullified:

Women who come as captives of war, leaving their husbands behind in Dar al-Harb (Domain of War), are not prohibited, for their marriage is nullified by virtue of their entry into Dar al-Islam (Domain of Islam). A man may marry such women and, if they happen to be his slave-girls, he may have sexual relations with them.There is disagreement, however, among jurists as to what should be done if both husband and wife have been taken captive together. Abu Hanifah and the jurists of his school are of the opinion that their marriage should remain intact. Malik and Shafi'i, on the other hand, argue that their matrimonial contract should be rendered void.

source: note 44

See we're still at square one, because he will quote from that sentence: There is disagreement, however, among jurists as to what should be done if both husband and wife have been taken captive together. Abu Hanifah and the jurists of his school are of the opinion that their marriage should remain intact. Malik and Shafi'i, on the other hand, argue that their matrimonial contract should be rendered void. I will write to him, if the marriage is not nullified there is no indication that those women could be taken as wives, ... :) The solution is to just remove non-notable exceptions from articles. Yaḥyā ‎ (talk) 20:18, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

Exactly. And your last proposal is a matter of changing a general principle on Wikipedia, not a matter concerning this article. So the point made in this discussion seems to be clear, and this is no longer a discussion about original research - that claim has been proven false. And as you say, it has also been proven that there is scholarly disagreement and the claim in the paragraph can be made. I would therefor suggest that the discussion here come to an end, and instead those who wish to give nuance to the paragraph do so according to our basic guidelines, by adding facts, nuance and sources. Idunius (talk) 07:47, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

See I am not, obscure exceptions can be considered as fringe. In this case it exist because of the inherent limitations of languages. In written language they often exclude what would seem obvious (another marriage, implies usually a prior divorce). That's why I previously said that there is abuse of process here. It is compared to exploiting a bug in Windows. That the bug is there, does not mean that the bug was intended. Yaḥyā ‎ (talk) 14:49, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

That is an impossible argument, since if they were divorced no special permission would be needed to marry them. So that is a contradiction in terms. And if you look at different translations you will see that there is general agreement that the ayah is about marrying married women. You are simply coming up with illogical inventions now because you dislike what the sources say. Anyway, as stated above the discussion here should end since the allegation about original research has been proven wrong. Please, follow the basic guidelines instead by adding depth and nuance to the passage, using valid sources. Idunius (talk) 19:06, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ There appears to be general agreement that the passage is about marrying women whose previous marriages have been nullified (despite a lack of a formal divorce) because they were no longer in contact with their previous husbands. No anthropologist would call this polyandry - the previous marriage isn't considered legitimate, the previous husband and wife are no longer live together. (see footnote c-24 page 110-111 here). WP:OR prohibits using a source "to reach or imply a conclusion not directly and explicitly supported by the source, you are engaging in original research". If you want the discussion to end, all you need to do is dig up a single academic or scholarly source that says "this passage endorses polyandry" - I find several that explicitly say it is is prohibited. Simply find one source that disputes that claim.

Regarding the note from Abu Hanifah: Idunius, is your contention is that this means, if the couple is captured together, Abu Hanifah believes that the previous marriage should remain intact, but that (for some reason) the women should also be able to remarry and both marriages remain simultaneously valid? The logical interpretation is that Hanifah believes a new marriage would not be lawful because the previous marriage isn't nullified. This is plainly obvious if you look at other translations of that text.

That is, those women who become prisoners of war, while their unbelieving husbands are left behind in the War Zone, are not unlawful because their marriage ties are broken by the fact that they have come from the War Zone into the Islamic Zone. It is lawful to marry such women, and it is also lawful for those, in whose possession they are, to have sexual relations with them. There is, however, a difference of opinion as to whether such a woman is lawful, if her husband is also taken a prisoner along with her. Imam Abu Hanifah and those of his way of thinking are of the opinion that the marriage tie of such a pair would remain intact but Imam Malik and Shafi 'i, are of the opinion that it would also break.

http://quranx.com/Tafsirs/4.23

In other words: it's only lawful if the previous marriage is nullified. Abu Hanifah thinks it isn't nullified if the spouses are captured together, and so he disagrees that it is lawful. Nblund ^talk 19:41, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

Again: since the claim about original research has been proven wrong, this is no longer the place to discuss. Please use the proper talk page to discuss content. Idunius (talk) 07:55, 7 December 2017 (UTC)

I'm afraid it doesn't work that way. Wikipedia operates on consensus, there's clearly no consensus on whether or not this statement constitutes OR. By my count, 4 editors have questioned whether this is OR, and I don't see where any of those editors have been persuaded. I'm certainly more convinced than ever that this is a clear misreading that is not supported by any reliable - or even any unreliable -sources. Nblund ^talk 16:05, 7 December 2017 (UTC)

The discussion, including an answer to your prior argument, is continued on the article's talk page, not closed.]] But since the issue now is content, not original research, the talk page is the correct place to discuss. Idunius (talk) 16:58, 7 December 2017 (UTC)

Hi Nblund, since I have disengaged, I guess it's 3-2, yet no census. But I don't think number of users is a good determinant, because we got all engaged in the article. One way I see is to provide the sentence to someone else and ask for comments. That may not be sufficient; another option would be to word a sentence in such a way that it can be interpreted as either way (if there is yet no consensus, putting the blame on the inherent limitation of written language). :) Yaḥyā ‎ (talk) 02:39, 8 December 2017 (UTC)

I agree that outside input would be helpful. I posted the issue on a couple of wikiprojects, so maybe we will get some more response. Just so I'm clear: have you changed your view, or are you just saying you don't want to participate in the discussion anymore? Nblund ^talk 04:13, 8 December 2017 (UTC)

See what he is reporting is useful, maybe that's not the case here, but in several situations phrases could be interpreted in several different ways. It is a bug in the system. Because what happens when a sentence could be interpreted by some as explicit while for others not? We could be in a similar situation to Hacking for Good [8]. I haven't changed my mind, I just believe that the approach I am taking isn't appropriate. If it is decided that that thing does not go on the article, we ought to find also other criterias for inclusion which do not solely rely on written language. This involves blinding methods, etc... So it is pointless for me to raise it here when this problem is not specific to this particular article. Yaḥyā ‎ (talk) 16:54, 8 December 2017 (UTC)

Cogewea

Could I request some input on the article Cogewea. I have been identifying and tagging significant original research in the article, and the author, Trentprof, has been removing the problematic passages, but is contesting that gathering course syllabi to support a claim that "This edition is used widely in post-secondary classrooms" is original research. As far as I am concerned, it is clearly original research, because the source is Trentprof's own research, rather than something that has been published. Cordless Larry (talk) 14:36, 10 December 2017 (UTC)

See also Talk:Cogewea#Challenge to “Original Research” claim. Could someone else offer a view here? Cordless Larry (talk) 18:07, 10 December 2017 (UTC)

Anyone? This isn't a complicated debate, but we could do with outside input. Cordless Larry (talk) 08:16, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

I think it is iffy, but should probably be removed. On the one hand, you might make a case that this is somewhat akin to the accepted practice of saying that a film was "generally well received by critics" on the basis of multiple critical reviews, but in those cases we have a rough idea of who the important critics are and we have things like review aggregators to further support those claims. In this case, I think there could be a real debate in this case about when a text could be considered "widely used" because we don't really know what the base rate is. How many English lit classes are there in the world? Nblund ^talk 18:19, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, Nblund. I agree. There's also the issue of whether reading lists for university courses can be considered published sources. Cordless Larry (talk) 18:45, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

Can original research be used to challenge an edit?

One thing WP:OR is unclear about is the use of original research to challenge information on wikipedia? In the case of Macrophilia there have been several edit wars about the wording of "typically a male fantasy". While cited sources do state that, the sources appear biased by reporting only on material typically marketed to the male demographic. From personal experience in the community and having attended sizecon, there appears to be close to equal representation of both the female and male demographics. Sizecon was organized by a female artist [9] who appears to have participated in the edit war Talk:Macrophilia/Archive_1#Taking_a_stand. I wish those involved used the proper channels to make their points, but the past can't be helped. So my question is can an aggregation of user data (many profiles displaying gender) and poll data be used to settle a long standing argument about whether text should be Removed from a wikipedia article?

Any response positive or negative on this issue is appreciated, especially if from someone with an authoritative 'final' say such as an admin or bureaucrat. Thank you in advance. Eaterjolly (talk) 16:21, 10 December 2017 (UTC)

You cannot make an edit based on original research. However, ocassionally reliable sources will provide incorrect information which you think is wrong, in which case you should find the sources to make the correction. Also, extraordinary claims require higher sources so you can challenge claims that are not widely reported or adequately supported. No one btw has an authoritative final say. TFD (talk) 16:48, 10 December 2017 (UTC)

I should have said well-respected say.

I think Wikinews shows OR doesn't necessarily violate NPOV, so I don't see why we can't let it influence our edits so long as we aren't building claims based on it. Eaterjolly (talk) 21:24, 10 December 2017 (UTC)

• Removal of verifiable information is always a contentious issue... but ultimately it comes down to consensus. Anything can be removed if there is consensus to remove it. Remember that “verifiability does not guarantee inclusion”. Blueboar (talk) 19:19, 10 December 2017 (UTC)

If I understand the question Eaterjolly: you're not talking about including original research in an article, but original research has shown that a claim from a reliable source is factually incorrect, and you want to remove it? I think editors can use their better judgement, and if there is general consensus that the claim is wrong, it might make sense to remove it.

I don't know if user profiles would convince me entirely, but it also looks like there is weak support for the claim that this is typically a male fantasy - it appears to be a claim made based on anecdotal evidence rather than systematic demographic research. The article from psychology today makes it clear that there is a lack of peer-reviewed research on this topic, and hedges by stating that most macrophiles are "thought to be heterosexual males". Putting the OR issue aside, I think it would be better to avoid stating this as a fact by attributing it in-text to Helen Friedman, and then acknowledge the lack of high-quality research on the topic. Nblund ^talk 20:00, 10 December 2017 (UTC)

Yes, consensus is the final say. Another source I found actually criticizes specifically that psychology today article. I think the best course of action would be attributing it inline and demoting it from the lead to one of the subsections. I hope that will be an agree-able change when I get around to it.

Though I have to admit a few other sources mention it, like this playboy article however here's a quote "everything I’ve read on the topic suggests that it tends to be most common among men"

Eaterjolly (talk) 21:42, 10 December 2017 (UTC)

List of totalitarian regimes

I'm not sure where to take this issue. The article has literally no sources and the claims about type of government don't always match those of the country's own article. The ideologies section ditto, it appears to be mainly an analysis of the main article. The main editor now points out that User:Sjö says sources aren't needed for the list just that " if the article says it is or was totalitarian or words to that effect the regime can be included. That eliminates the need for edit wars here." But of course articles change, and I the first few I looked at the main article didn't say totalitarian. In any case, WP:SOURCELIST clearly says "Lists, whether they are stand-alone lists (also called list articles) or embedded lists, are encyclopedic content just as paragraph-only articles or sections are. Therefore, all individual items on the list must follow Wikipedia's content policies: the core content policies of Verifiability (through good sources in the item's one or more references), No original research, and Neutral point of view, plus the other content policies as well. Although the format of a list might require less detail per topic, Wikipedia policies and procedures apply equally to both a list of similar things as well as to any related article to which an individual thing on the list might be linked." Doug Weller talk 19:25, 22 December 2017 (UTC)

Even a list needs sources for any content added, so for everything, then remove within a week if no sources are given Darkness Shines (talk) 19:30, 22 December 2017 (UTC)

I think citations are needed for lists to avoid WP:OR or indiscriminate adds, lists are magnets for subtle vandalism. If this one has problems with IPs frequently adding unsourced information, then pending changes protection might be in order, until it is improved and referenced. Seraphim System ^(talk) 06:13, 24 December 2017 (UTC)

The IP mainly editing has an account, so they could switch to that. Doug Weller talk 16:18, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

Cold_War#Request_for_Comment

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Cold_War#Request_for_Comment

On the Cold War Talk page, I've been accused of engaging in OR on numerous edits because I used more than one secondary source. I've also been accused of misrepresenting sources. My own perspective, after extensive debate, is that there may be political issues clouding my fellow editors' judgement—but of course I could be wrong.

The RfC linked above is something of a test case. It's developed into a debate on whether the pre-World War II period should be included in the article at all, but it originated with this contribution of mine:

"Events which further fueled suspicion included: the Bolsheviks'...publishing of secret treaties which exposed the Allies' imperialistic war aims, particularly over the middle east. "

In some respects, I've left myself open by using so many citations, and by using the provocative phrase "imperialistic war aims." Yet "imperialistic war aims" is actually a quotation from this source in relation to exposure of the treaties. Pages 131-133 of this source harmonizes with the above in its portrayal of the Allies' quest for "indemnities and territory [which] hardly squared with noble ideals..." The Bolsheviks' desire to "unmask capitalist duplicity" and the subsequent "embarrassment to the Allies and...calamity for [Woodrow] Wilson" mark this as a proto-Cold War episode.

I don't want to go on at length here, but I'll note that the core of my statement in the second clause, about the secret treaty on the Middle East (Sykes-Picot Agreement) and the origins of the Cold War is a summary of this article. The other citations are just supporting and aren't really even needed for summary, much less synthesis.

Please weigh in at the RfC. I'd really like to know if I've overstepped my bounds on this.

Best, GPRamirez5 (talk) 02:32, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

• Yes, sure, some background information about the pre-World War II period should be included in the article. No one disputed it on article talk page. Hence the reasons for the RfC and this posting are doubtful. My very best wishes (talk) 16:11, 28 December 2017 (UTC)

References

State atheism

Hello, I'd like to have some input/consesus about the possible WP:SYNTH and WP:OR in the State atheism article: a couple of us have opened a discussion about it since some time, and one contributor has even compiled a source analysis for one section as evidence of this, but the article authors don't seem very interested in addressing the issue.

State atheism is the name of the article, and its content describes events that themselves are verifiable, but almost all of the article's sources do not describe these events as, or use or even mention the term, "state atheism". So since the cited source does not call these events by that label, I don't see how the article can (this would mean that it was the wikipedia contributors applying it (without supporing sources)), but I would like a second (or more) opinion/confirmation about the WP:SYNTH (or WP:OR) quality of this.

Thanks, TP ✎ ✓ 20:06, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

Update: some most-demonstrably WP:OR (WP:SYNTH)) content has been removed, but the article could much use extra eyes/minds assessing the above in the rest of the article. TP ✎ ✓ 08:55, 3 January 2018 (UTC)

What is the consensus for inclusion of simulated behaviors of bypass capacitors?

Recent edit by User:Constant314 I don't understand how original research pertains to an image?Vinyasi (talk) 02:52, 1 January 2018 (UTC)

First let me state that I believe that the edits in question were made in good faith.

Constant314 I'm sure they were. So were mine.Vinyasi (talk) 05:54, 1 January 2018 (UTC)

The disputed content is the graphical results of a SPICE simulation of a circuit that purports to demonstrate certain behavior. The circuit appears to be entirely the editor’s own work.

Constant314 Both circuits are almost entirely of my own creation. The only distinction is that Fig.1 succeeds at suppressing back EMF while Fig.2 does not. I originally got a semblance of both from a guy at All About Circuits. His was a simple demonstration of back EMF and there was no capacitor in his. Instead, he had a three ohm resistor. I replaced that resistor with a capacitor, because I saw the potential that my substitution had in turning it into a bypass capacitor of a simple variety (according to this website). Then, I tweaked it to highlight the ON state by lingering for a mere micro second during the OFF state since the OFF state did not interest me any further than depicting it as a mere spike. I'm not that smart to build such a circuit from scratch! I went there specifically to educate myself on back EMF. What I concluded was that his technique for exhibiting back EMF was capable of becoming a simple bypass circuit according the a cite I used in my text. Vinyasi (talk) 05:54, 1 January 2018 (UTC)

The editor is, in effect, stipulating that the circuit demonstrates the effect, the circuit depicted in the SPICE graphic is a correct implementation of the circuit, and that the simulator produced correct results. All those facts require a reliable source.

Constant314 Sorry I didn't make that more plain. I guess I could be a little bit more verbose in the text to set aside these concerns so that no one else could raise them? Vinyasi (talk) 05:54, 1 January 2018 (UTC)

That does not mean that a SPICE simulation would always be WP:OR. For example, if a reliable source published a circuit, a SPICE implementation, and graphical results from the implementation, it would not be OR to implement the simulation for the purpose of generating high quality graphics of the waveforms.

Constant314 Exactly what I did! Vinyasi (talk) 05:54, 1 January 2018 (UTC)

So, there are two extremes: an instance where an editor conceives, implements and simulates a circuit, which is almost certainly OR and an instance where all the results come from a WP:RS and the editor simply makes esthetic improvements which is almost certainly not OR, but may be WP:CV.

Constant314 Looked like it was given away without license - copyleft, I presume. Vinyasi (talk) 05:54, 1 January 2018 (UTC)

Are there in-between cases? Yes, probably. For example, manufactures of integrated circuits often include simple schematics showing how output current or voltage is measured. This could possibly be “paraphrased” into a SPICE depiction, especially if the depiction were simple enough to be verified by interested editors.

However, SPICE has a problems along this line of being verifiable by interested editors. There is no standard GUI for SPICE. While resisters and capacitors are generally recognizable, the symbols for sources and switches varies. Different SPICE implementations may assign default values for hidden parameters. For example LTspice will assign a DC resistance of one milliohm to any inductor for which the series resistance has not been assigned.

Constant314 I tried adding 1 milli ohm series resistance to the inductor. The result was no different than before (probably since I already have one milli ohm resistance adjacent to it). Then I tried altering the series resistance to one ohm. Then I did the same, separately, to the adjacent resistor. All both did was accelerate the rise for amperage. It also scaled downward all three outputs except the voltage input measured at node labeled Vin since there was less time/opportunity for the amperage to accumulate itself when switch was ON which has the additional consequence of reducing the voltage measured at V(1) when switched OFF showing less back EMF. Vinyasi (talk) 05:54, 1 January 2018 (UTC)

There are a lot of hidden variables, especially the parasitic values. LTspice has three different transient simulators. Sometimes the transient simulation converges to non-sense.

Constant314 I tried both standards for increased strictness: 'Gear Integration Method' and 'Engine Solver: Alternate' with no variation of result from the original default settings of 'Modified Trapezoidal Integration Method' and 'Engine Solver: Normal'. Vinyasi (talk) 05:54, 1 January 2018 (UTC)

Moreover, SPICE allows the depiction and simulation of impossible circuits. I can create a SPICE circuit that produces more energy than it consumes.

Constant314 So can I, but that doesn't mean that all of its simulations are suspect by default. Vinyasi (talk) 05:54, 1 January 2018 (UTC)

In the end, I am highly dubious of the claim, “I simulated it with SPICE, therefore it is reliable.” Constant314 (talk) 04:46, 1 January 2018 (UTC)

Constant314 I did more than merely simulate this circuit. Since I have several months of experience simulating circuits which defy reality, and since I have no formal training in this field (requiring me to exhaust all possible factors to see what might happen), I can tell you unequivocally that this circuit is legit for the simple reason that modifying any one of a circuit's parameters or component values can put a swift halt to 'weirdness' - if I may quote Paul Falstad from his source code concerning the behavior of diodes and transistors sometimes soar to infinite values if their activity is not capped. Thanks for your concern. Vinyasi (talk) 05:54, 1 January 2018 (UTC)

I understand that you attempted to be very diligent. However, that is just more evidence that it is OR. Constant314 (talk)

For what it's worth, I updated both images with added markings delineating when the switch is ON vs OFF. Suppressed_back_EMF_with_a_bypass_filter Back_EMF_with_bypass_filter Vinyasi (talk) 15:40, 1 January 2018 (UTC)

Decided to do a comparison image for contrasting benefit vs cost in each case. Vinyasi (talk) 17:31, 1 January 2018 (UTC)

References

Episode order for television series Earth 2

At Earth 2 (TV series)#Episodes, the listed episode order is unsourced, and several editors are insisting that strict airdate order must be used. This would seem to be WP:SYNTHESIS - taking airdate information and forming that into an "episode order". Now, for most series, using the airing order is a good shortcut to listing the episode order, as they tend to be one in the same. For some series, Firefly (TV series)#Episodes very notably, the airing order was conflated due to network machinations, usually because a series is being shelved or contractual airing obligations have to be met before killing the series. When this happens, either the producers will communicate the "right" viewing order, or perhaps the order will be fixed on a future home media release. This is the case with Earth 2. As it stands, the article as ZERO sources for the "episode order". The episode order was previously correct, but an undiscussed edit in 2010 changed the order, and that unsourced order persists. I had attempted to update this with sources for the correct order. I ask that others please look at this through the lens of Wikipedia:Verifiability and achieve consensus that we should not WP:SYNTH the order by simply assuming it from airdates. -- Netoholic @ 08:59, 1 January 2018 (UTC)

Primary sources

I'm curious about something. If it is factual information, is it okay to cite directly from a company's website for minimal information (e.g Roku's website to verify the countries that they distribute to. JacobPace (talk) 21:25, 3 January 2018 (UTC)

My understanding is that factual information is irrelevant. If no reliable secondary sources have covered that information, then the information is unlikely notable enough to be included. Alex Shih (talk) 07:24, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

JacobPace, primary sources are fine in many cases for factual information. See WP:PRIMARY which begins: Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published secondary sources and, to a lesser extent, on tertiary sources and primary sources. StarryGrandma (talk) 22:24, 4 January 2018 (UTC)