Overflow Crowd erupts in cheers as Lexington city council votes to move confederate statues

SomeCalcium · 2017-08-18T15:28:00+00:00

Eh, the right is also wasting a lot of political capital on dumber issues.

1) Pushing back on environmental regulations or the EPA in general. Climate change is happening, they're only going to lose on this issue as people become increasingly concerned about the state of the environment.

2) Transgender bathroom issues - incredibly stupid issue to bring attention to. All they're doing is accelerating discussions around gender. I have seen sympathy from transgender issues grow a lot among my liberal friends since North Carolina.

I also have to add; it's not that liberals think they should be outright destroyed. Almost every liberal I've ever spoken to says the following - "Take them down and put them in a museum". We shouldn't forget our history, but we shouldn't be celebrating these symbols of oppression in our public spaces. There's a pretty clear compromise here. It's not remotely unreasonable.

SomeCalcium · 2017-08-16T17:19:26+00:00

Fellow Christian School attendee. Preach brother.

SomeCalcium · 2017-08-16T16:46:53+00:00

I actually see your logic applied at the end of the video, where the reporter is asking the Nationalist if he approves of the murder that occurred. He seems to distance himself from the murder as a relation to his movement, while approving of the girl dying. But, it is important to note, that based on his rhetoric - he would support firing weapons into the crowd if necessary.

I just want to make a few distinctions here. While there are easily documented fringe elements of the Black Lives Matter movement, I still think it's kind of a stretch to compare that group to White Supremacists. While some of the rhetoric and vitriol coming from members of the Black Lives Matter movement is certainly appalling, the initial purpose of the movement - to draw attention to police brutality towards Blacks - is sound. Hence why I believe it's unlikely that the left will ever truly distance themselves or condemn this movement as much as those on the right would like to see that happen (that says nothing about how incredibly disorganized a movement based on hashtag is. My biggest criticism is essentially that they lack leadership or a figurehead. Hence, why I don't think anything really came of that movement There's no BLM equivalent to Richard Spencer or David Duke).

I believe that comparing Antifa to this neo-Nazi movement is far more apt. However, the only thing that Antifa really stands for is being against Neo-Nazis. If anything, the rise of this alt-right movement gave birth to this current iteration of Antifa. And, from the video evidence that I've seen (Vice and otherwise), most of the counter-protesters were citizens not affiliated with any particular group.

And the Baltimore riots referred to as riots. Since they were riots.

SomeCalcium · 2017-08-16T16:09:06+00:00

Very well put. Thanks for engaging in this discussion in positive way.

As to not be crass, I will always disagree with the notion that identity politics is the only factor driving those on the left to fight for equality based on race, gender, sexual orientation, and religion. No matter how far we've come, there are always battles to be won and points to be made.

I think that focusing entirely on what divides us is dangerous, but I generally find that many left leaning politicians run campaigns based on inclusivity and acceptance. It is important to acknowledge what makes us unique and celebrate our diversity, but do so in such a way that does set us back. It's a difficult line to walk, and I think that you're correct in your assessment that Democrats are often guilty of leading us down a path that's too far down the line.

What I do find issue with, is the equating Obama with Trump. If you were to compare Obama to his contemporaries, it is far better to compare Obama's approach to controversial topics to other seasoned politicians like Bush, McCain, or Romney who make statements that appeal to their base without openly antagonizing those that disagree with their political viewpoints.

I agree with you that it is foolish to blame all issues relating to white identity politics on Trump. Although, that is not what I was proposing. As the elected head of the US Government, the President has a much bigger platform by which to influence the political climate of the country than any other elected or non-elected citizen.

It's an incredible responsibility, and Trump has shown a disinterest in approaching issues such as this one with the same kind of deference as his predecessors. Criticism for Trump is completely warranted here. Trump's original remarks, and his press conference yesterday completely exacerbated an already tense political situation. That is why I am criticizing Trump. In this particular facet of us his job, he failed.

I appreciate you engaging me on this subject. I just hope you see me view point, and why I believe that this criticism of Trump is completely warranted.

SomeCalcium · 2017-08-16T11:12:22+00:00

That is a black person, yes.

SomeCalcium · 2017-08-16T05:44:53+00:00

I posted the video in this thread myself, but my general rule of thumb is to always take Vice productions with a grain of salt. If there were non-Nazi protesters there, it's possible that Vice may not have shown them, but the video evidence there is pretty damning. There didn't seem to be "good people" on the Right side as Trump proclaimed this afternoon.

SomeCalcium · 2017-08-16T05:28:52+00:00

I think it's worth noting that in instances like this, Trump is essentially his worst critic.

This is the same guy who admonished his predecessor for refusing to acknowledge "Radical Islamic Terrorism." There's always this other side to any of Trump's actions, wherein anything he does/doesn't do is something he most likely criticized others for.

SomeCalcium · 2017-08-16T05:20:24+00:00

I normally wouldn't post this kind of link, particularly on this subreddit since Vice is known for highly editing their videos, but they have some pretty incredible footage of the riots as well as interviews with some of the leaders of the white nationalist movements there.

Link: http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/videos/a57009/charlottesville-vice-documentary/

If this video is to be believed (and I take it with some grain of salt), the counter-protesters shown came armed with signs and flags while the other side came armed with guns, body armor, and clubs. That's some fairly aggressive posturing from the Nazi side of things.

SomeCalcium · 2017-08-16T04:57:22+00:00

Yeah, I'm right there with ya. This really punches a hole in that narrative. My first thought was "Oh God, Vice." But this is a pretty eye opening video. Kind of makes Trump's statements all that more appalling.

I guess you could consider the Portland area the home of "Antifa." But Portland has a big anarchist movement, which is really what they're railing against. These were just counter protesters.

SomeCalcium · 2017-08-16T03:42:32+00:00

Right. I don't think you're an asshole for asserting it; your example is just purposely ridiculous. When a story like that made waves, he did just just that. Took me about two seconds to find an example. Obama on the Dallas shootings last year:

I spoke this morning with Mayor Rawlings of Dallas to convey the deepest condolences to the American people and that the Federal Government will provide whatever assistance Dallas may need as it deal with this tremendous tragedy.

We still don’t know all the facts. What we do know is that there’s been a vicious, calculated and despicable attack on law enforcement. Police in Dallas were on duty, doing their job, keeping people safe during a peaceful protest. These law enforcement officers were targeted, and nearly a dozen officers were shot, five were killed. Other officers and at least one civilian were wounded. Some are in serious conditions and we are praying for their recovery. As I told Mayor Rawlings, and I believe that I speak for every single American when I say, that we are horrified over these events and that we stand united with people and the police department in Dallas. According to police there are multiple suspects. We will learn more undoubtedly about their twisted motivations, but let’s be clear, there is no possible justification for these kinds of attacks. Grave violence against law enforcement. The FBI is already in touch with the Dallas police; anyone involved in these senseless murders will be held fully accountable. Justice will be done. I will have more say about this when the facts become more clear. For now, let me just say that, even as yesterday I spoke about are need to be concerned as all Americans about racial disparities in our criminal justice system. I also said yesterday that our police have an extraordinarily difficult job and the vast majority of them do their job in outstanding fashion. I also indicated the degree in which we need to be supportive of those officers who do their job each and every day. Protecting us and protecting our communities. Today is a wrenching reminder of the sacrifices that they make for us. We also know that when people are armed with powerful weapons, it unfortunately make attacks like these more deadly and more tragic and in the days ahead consider those realities as well.

You're also hugely undermining how big of an event this is. This isn't a one off hate crime that occurred. This was a neo-Nazi/White Nationalist riot that culminated in a terrorist attack. It's the largest white nationalist event of this scale in decades. This is a really, really big deal and it takes a delicate touch to approach the subject well. Not only did his words fail to quell the situation; it further emboldened these groups to hold more rallies.

So yeah, I'm not going to pretend that Trump has to get up in front of a mic every day and declare that racism is wrong. Just like Obama doesn't need to get up every day and address police violence (which he often did). This event was a landmark one, and is one of the biggest headlines of the year (which is really saying something). Not only did Trump take two days to denounce white supremacy, he all but backtracked it today by making a false equivalency that both sides were equal when clearly they were not. There's a very easy path forward and Trump did not take it.

SomeCalcium · 2017-08-16T02:29:02+00:00

I'm gonna leave it. Haha. That's great.

SomeCalcium · 2017-08-16T02:11:19+00:00

The alt-right.

SomeCalcium · 2017-08-16T02:06:40+00:00

The coins been termed, at least. It's in the public lexicon. It's amazing to see how incredibly effective having a President susceptible to this shit is for furthering the movement of white nationalists.

SomeCalcium · 2017-08-16T01:42:55+00:00

Thanks. Made the correction.

SomeCalcium · 2017-08-16T01:39:31+00:00

I'm sorry, but, at this point in time, Trump is pretty damn responsible for causing the divisiveness. There's a reason why Presidents are generally very careful about what they say - because people misconstrued what they say. Part of their job is to keep Americans on an even kilter. Trump is completely careless about what he says, and, naturally, when he says something poorly thought out, outrage ensues.

There's a playbook about what you should do as President. Something terrible happens; you denounce what happened. You attempt to quell tensions. Trump did the opposite - I'll walk you through it.

On Friday night, a group of White Nationalists march through park chanting things like "Blood and Soil" and "Death to Jews." The next day, violence ensues when protesters and white nationalists clash. Violence further escalates when one of the white nationalists drives his car into a group of protesters resulting in the death of a Protester.

The Presidential playbook dictates that you immediately denounce the White Nationalist group as an act of terrorism. What does Trump do? Trump instead says both sides are to blame (blatant false equivalency here), and then takes two days to make a statement denouncing White Nationalism. He then proceeds to make a statement saying that "No one is satisfied by what I said," and today goes back to his original statement saying both sides are equally to blame.

This is part of his job. He's expected to make a statement when things like this happen. It's expected that he will ease tensions. He just completely sucks at this part of the job (okay, all of it, but particularly this part), and is only further ostracizing those that do not support him by creating blatant false equivalencies.

SomeCalcium · 2017-08-16T01:26:11+00:00

I wouldn't be too worried about Trump becoming a dictator. He's actually a lame duck President. He really has no sway in Congress or the House. The worst thing Trump can do at this point in time is in relation to foreign policy, hence why you seem him making statements about North Korea and Venezuela. If he takes action against North Korea, you'll see his poll numbers temporarily spike up the 50's, and he's desperately looking for a legislative win right now (or any kind of win).

I'd also be really surprised if Trump's Presidency can survive the coming Blue wave we'll see in the House next year. It's pretty heavily gerrymandered, but when Republicans fail to push Tax Reform and Infrastructure (and, if a government shut down happens, which is possible), you'll really see the Republicans losing in 2018.

SomeCalcium · 2017-08-16T01:21:51+00:00

I mean, I'll say one thing about this. Pretty much everyone I know left or right unequivocally denounced this. The only person I'm hearing trying to create this false equivalency is Trump and his ilk.

SomeCalcium · 2017-08-16T01:18:06+00:00

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGKbFA7HW-U

He babbles about infrastructure for a few minutes and then just gets right into. Yells for about 10 straight minutes.

SomeCalcium · 2017-08-16T01:01:38+00:00

Forest through the trees mentality. I don't think there's an alt-left, I'm not proposing that. I just like peaceful marches like the Women's March, and, having been to rallies, there's a lot of energy to literally fight those on the right that antagonizing those protesting (what happened in Charlottesville is very, very different).

They're a convenient scape goat for the alt-right to create that false equivalency between the far right nationalist movements and the left.

SomeCalcium · 2017-08-16T00:46:34+00:00

Oh totally - 100% in agreement. I'm just trying to make sense out of Trump's comments.

SomeCalcium · 2017-08-16T00:22:16+00:00

Antifa, I guess?

Antifa sucks, but they aren't nationalists, you know?

SomeCalcium · 2017-08-16T00:05:05+00:00

He immediately came out with a follow up tweet that rolled back the statement. The guy just sucks. Seriously. It's unbelievable how much he sucks. I'm so fucking tired of this shit, and the spineless Republicans who will furrow their brows and shake their heads as we see white this white nationalist movement grow.

SomeCalcium · 2017-08-14T01:46:06+00:00

Right, I always find the argument that "anti-gun legislation doesn't work because cities still have high crime rates" disingenuous since it's one of the few issues that really needs to be tested on the federal level in order to see its success.

Now, I'm not advocating for us trying it on the federal level. I'm just saying that if we want to look at the at the effectiveness of anti-gun legislation, you have to look outside the United States. Hence the reason why countries like the Australia are usually go to examples for people who are anti-gun.

SomeCalcium · 2017-08-13T17:48:05+00:00

Right.

I see you're using the word "brilliant" sarcastically, but it really isn't a terrible plan since there really aren't any other solutions that will work. Coal is a dead industry as is traditional manufacturing (as in, manufacturing jobs that don't require a lot of schooling). When an industry dies, either the local economy dries up and people eventually leave, or the leaders of that community look towards alternative industries to invest into that can keep that community afloat.

I understand how impractical this is for every day people on paper, but Trump's plan is reactive one which only prolongs the inevitable while Hillary's plan is proactive and designed to reinvigorate the economy.

Now whether her plan would work or not, who knows. We're not testing it, and it's apparent that those communities have little to desire to even try it.

SomeCalcium · 2017-08-13T02:11:56+00:00

Dude has shit to sell. He's just hustling idiots for cash.

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