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Opening the Debate | Responding | |
|---|---|---|
Moralistic or not, misogyny is not about hating women. It is about controlling them. | ||
| Reply: Kate Manne | ||

Sarah Maple, Belle the Football Manager. Courtesy of the artist.
If you were ever tempted by the thought that gender politics is over in America, the 2016 election campaign must have come as a rude awakening. Brazen displays of misogyny have prompted renewed interest in the subject. In a New York Times column from late March, for example, David Brooks claimed to have discovered in Donald Trump a new strain of misogyny, which has evolved beyond moralism. Whereas old-school misogynists condemn and punish women for their sexual powers and transgressions, this new kind of misogynist competes with other men for heterosexual dominance—and for the ladies.
Trump’s misogyny is not the historical moralistic misogyny. Traditional misogyny blames women for the lustful, licentious and powerful urges that men sometimes feel in their presence. In this misogyny, women are the powerful, disgusting corrupters—the vixens, sirens and monsters.
Brooks is right that Trump does not blame women for making him feel lustful. His misogyny manifests mainly as sexual harassment, along with grade-school put-downs, of women who cross or challenge him. (This may not seem very new, but set that aside for the moment.) Rosie O’Donnell mocked Trump’s show of munificence in pardoning Miss Universe for indulging in underage drinking, so he called O’Donnell a pig and a dog, among other epithets. Carly Fiorina competed with Trump for the Republican nomination; he implied that her face was not attractive enough for a president. When Fox News’s Megyn Kelly pressed Trump about his history of insulting women, he fumed that she had blood coming out of her eyes and her “wherever,” coining a new euphemism by way of a word-finding problem. Hillary Clinton’s bathroom break at a debate was “disgusting”; Elizabeth Warren is “Pocahontas,” Hillary’s “goofy friend.”
Trump’s blunt kind of misogyny is a good place to start in understanding the general phenomenon. It is so crude, shameless, and unapologetic that we run little risk of getting lost in its nuances. But we must ask the natural next question: What happens to misogyny when it acquires a little subtlety or goes underground and manages more by way of plausible deniability?
The answer, all too often, is that it is transformed into moralistic forms—which are not, as Brooks seems to imply, historical artifacts. What unites these varieties of misogyny, past and present, and moralistic and non-moralistic alike, is that they enforce the patriarchal order by lifting men up and taking down women.
The Enforcers
Trump’s remarks about O’Donnell, Fiorina, and Kelly vividly illustrate misogyny’s underlying logic. Such hateful and hostile reactions are frequently directed either at women who challenge men’s power and authority, or at women who decline to serve men, flatter them, or hold their gaze admiringly. When women challenge male dominance, they are liable to be written off as greedy, grasping, and domineering. When they are perceived as insufficiently oriented to men’s interests, they are perceived as cold, selfish, and negligent.
These two characteristic triggers for misogynist hostility can be traced to the nature of a patriarchal order. In an entrenched patriarchy, most men will be dominant over some woman or women. (This has generally held regardless of class, though not race, in America.) But patriarchies are not formless gender hierarchies. Specific social roles give women’s subordination its content and character. These roles typically require women to support men in dominant social positions—giving them love and affection, care and loyalty, along with sex and children. Within a patriarchal order, women are in effect born into an unofficial service industry.
‘I have many executives that are women. They make money for me.’
Patriarchies thus depend on loving mothers, good wives, cool girlfriends, loyal secretaries, and so on. Even in more loosely scripted social contexts—from casual conversation to public discussion—gender shapes norms and expectations about authority and deference. Who speaks? Who listens? Who is expected to pay attention? Who gets to interrupt whom without risk of consternation? When there is a conflict, who concedes the point?
Of course, gender alone does not determine the answer to these questions. Race, age, disability, sexuality, institutional affiliation, and the markers of social class interact in complex ways with expectations based on gender.
Because of women’s service position, their subordination often has a masked quality about it: it is supposed to look amicable and seamless, rather than coerced. Service with a smile, not a grimace, is the watchword.
Misogyny is what happens when women break ranks or roles and disrupt the patriarchal order: they tend to be perceived as uppity, unruly, out of line, or insubordinate. Misogyny is not an undifferentiated hatred of women—which, in light of women’s social roles, would make little sense on men’s part. Why would a man disparage the women looking up at him admiringly, or bite the hands that soothe and serve him? Misogyny isn’t simply hateful; it imposes social costs on noncompliant women, who are liable to be labeled witches, bitches, sluts, and “feminazis,” among other things.
Think of misogyny, then, as the law enforcement branch of a patriarchal order. This makes for a useful if rough contrast between misogyny and sexism. Whereas misogyny upholds the social norms of patriarchies by patrolling and policing them, sexism serves to justify these norms, largely via an ideology of supposedly natural differences between men and women with respect to their talents, interests, proclivities, and appetites.
Sexism is bookish; misogyny is combative. Sexism is complacent; misogyny is anxious. Sexism has a theory; misogyny wields a cudgel.
Sexists subscribe to sexist ideology (albeit often unconsciously). Misogynists engage in misogynist behavior (again, often unwittingly). A sexist believes in men’s superiority over women in masculine-coded domains—such as intellectual endeavors, sports, business, and politics—or that men are less suited to feminine-coded activities, such as domestic work, emotional labor, and caring for children and other dependents. Misogynists may hope that sexists are right, while fearing just the opposite.
So sexism and misogyny have a different quality and flavor. Combating them successfully requires different strategies.
Of course, in practice, sexism and misogyny often go hand in hand—but not always. Brooks is right that Trump is not a 1950s-style sexist, as his former rival for the Republican nomination, John Kasich, might well be. When Kasich was questioned about his sexist statements, he remained sanguine if baffled, rather than getting hostile. In Trump’s case, misogyny is clearly the primary defect. This is reflected in the fact that Trump is happy to employ women in high-powered positions in his companies, so long as they remain loyal and deferential. Trump doesn’t underestimate women’s talents and abilities; he recognizes those talents when he can use them to his advantage. In his words, “I have many executives that are women. They are doing a phenomenal job. I pay them a tremendous amount of money. They make money for me.”
When Trump does make superficially sexist comments—that Hillary Clinton’s gender, or “woman card,” is all she has to play with—it plausibly stems from a desire to belittle. Misogyny often involves moves which put women down or raise men up, thus maintaining their relative positions within the gendered hierarchy. If this cannot be achieved in reality, soothing fantasies may be substituted, as when a Florida GOP official recently remarked that, when Trump debates Clinton, she will “go down like Monica Lewinsky.” This is not a prediction but rather, more plausibly, wishful thinking. He wouldn’t bet on it with the confidence intimated by such crassness.
Keystone Cop
Trump’s behavior confirms that misogyny need not involve hostility to all women. Misogynists can love their mothers. And misogyny sometimes gets itself up as paternalism, as when Trump insisted, “I respect women. I love women, I cherish women. . . . I will take care of women.” Trump also has high praise for some of the women who love and revere him, such as his daughter Ivanka, who defended him against charges of misogyny in a way few people found convincing. By saying that her father supported her career ambitions, as well as those of his women executives, Ivanka missed the point that she and they represent no threat to her father and are thus unlikely to come under fire. It is primarily women who challenge Trump’s power and preeminence who suffer his comebacks.
Misogyny can afford to be selective because its fundamental goal is enforcement. Women who know their place do not need to be put in it.
A final lesson from Trump is that misogyny is not best understood in psychological terms. You can be justified in holding that Trump is a misogynist without having a view about his innermost thoughts, feelings, and motivations. Maybe Trump has been acting all along—maybe his domineering displays are simply part of his “brand.” Maybe Trump hates the women he bullies, maybe he doesn’t; it hardly matters. Misogyny is what misogyny does to women. Think of it from the point of view of its targets or victims rather than that of its perpetrators. Misogyny is the hostility women are prone to face in navigating a social environment because they are women in a man’s world—a more or less entrenched patriarchy.
Misogyny imposes social costs on noncompliant women.
True, we are witnessing the crumbling of patriarchal social structures in the United States, among other parts of the world sometimes alleged to be post-patriarchal. Social progress for women has been rapid and impressive. But progress and resentment are natural, if awkward, bedfellows. Patriarchal structures do not just disappear overnight, nor do the norms and expectations upholding them dissipate instantaneously. The former are dismantled in dribs and drabs, while the latter remain ingrained, internalized by many.
This makes for a lot of openings for misogynist enforcement. Trump is clearly an overacheiver in this regard. It also follows from this view that women may be misogynists without being self-hating, although elements of internalized misogyny are sadly not uncommon. But women may also be prone to police other women’s bodies and behavior, elevating themselves in the terms of patriarchal values or signaling their loyalty to patriarchal figures.
Whoever the enforcers are, women who transgress are liable to be punished for any number of spurious reasons. Or they may simply be subject to crude insults, mockery, and derision.
Trump’s misogyny has given us vivid examples of the phenomenon at its crudest. Trump is in many ways the American id—especially for the white men who comprise the majority of his voter base. He has won millions of supporters, partly by holding up a mirror to a certain segment of the population, reflecting its anxieties, hopes, fantasies, and narcissism. To make American white men feel great again is Trump’s implicit promise. This will involve casting others down the relevant social hierarchies.
But his misogyny is, for better or worse, strictly limited. This is because of a striking and alarming limitation of Trump generally: he seems to lack a superego, or even the ability to mimic one. This explains both his remarkable shamelessness and the non-moralistic quality of his misogyny. It isn’t moralistic because Trump isn’t either. His normative words are simplistic and aesthetic terms of praise: “best,” “beautiful,” “great,” and “winning,” are some of his favorites. When he tries to engage in moral talk, he becomes uncharacteristically flummoxed.
This was evident in an interview with MSNBC’s Chris Matthews, which aired the day after Brooks’s column was published. Matthews pressed Trump on whether a woman would be punished for having an abortion, should the candidate get his way and criminalize abortion. After much verbal evasion, Trump finally told Matthews, “There has to be some form of punishment” for the woman. The invocation of punishment was a striking departure from Trump’s usual “great,” “beautiful,” and “strong,” a stumble into moralism by someone who lacks moral fluency.
But Trump’s clumsy gesture is an invitation to investigate what happens when a misogynist id of the kind he manifests is tempered by conscience or superego. Here are displayed the dark and creative machinations transforming the ressentiment of the domineering (though not the noble, as Nietzsche envisioned) from spontaneous outbursts into something moralistic. Such moralism takes at least two distinct forms: one that is ostensibly impartial, high-minded, and punitive, and a second that is aggrieved, wounded, and downcast. I will consider each in turn, in relation to conservatives’ so-called war on women. I will also reflect on what may be a third form: a more hot-headed, explosive kind of misogyny illustrated by the behavior of some on the left at present. This third form of moralistic misogyny targets women for being rule-breakers.

Sarah Maple, Ariel Conducts a Business Meeting. Courtesy of the artist.
High-Minded, Punitive Misogyny
The high-minded and punitive tenor of much of the misogyny in the United States today is exemplified by the rhetoric of the anti-abortion movement. Its political roots and lack of a close historical relationship with mainstream Christianity have been documented by legal scholar Reva B. Siegel and Pulitzer Prize–winning journalist Linda Greenhouse. Siegel and Greenhouse show how the religious position on abortion once held only by strict Catholics was coupled with the secular “family values” of the “silent majority” to help Richard Nixon win the 1972 election, the year before Roe v. Wade. In a 1972 New York Times Magazine article entitled “How Nixon Will Win,” Kevin Phillips, one of the chief engineers of the Southern Strategy, explained the “Acid, Amnesty, and Abortion” attack on Democratic candidate George McGovern. The idea was to create a moral panic over the latter’s support for legalizing marijuana, leniency for draft dodgers, and liberalism on abortion. As Greenhouse and Siegel explain, the aim in connecting the three issues was to give voters a sense that abortion “validated a breakdown of traditional roles that required men to be prepared to kill and die in war and women to save themselves for marriage and . . . motherhood.”
The cultural conflagration over abortion did not begin at the grassroots level; nor did it have an organic religious or moral basis. It was deliberately lit by political leaders, who intended that it be fueled by anxieties concerning women’s role within the family.
The plan has worked well enough to encourage conservatives who, in recent years, have been ratcheting up punitive anti-abortion measures. Abortion clinics around the country have been shuttered by restrictions—for example, requiring abortion providers to have hospital-admitting privileges and forcing clinics to conform to exacting hospital standards—lacking any valid medical rationale. As a result, Arkansas, Mississippi, Missouri, North Dakota, South Dakota, and Wyoming are down to a single abortion provider apiece. Other states may soon follow.
Additional barriers to access—including arbitrary waiting periods, requirements of multiple appointments prior to the procedure, and tight restrictions on abortions after twenty weeks—exacerbate the problem, leading some women to undergo illegal, dangerous, and self-induced abortions. This has led to life-threatening experiences and, for some women, jail time. New laws against so-called feticide mean that, in many states, it is not only difficult but sometimes impossible to have an abortion legally after twenty weeks. Since last March, at least seventeen women have been arrested on feticide charges.
Among them is Purvi Patel, who was reported to the police by a doctor in South Bend, Indiana, after she sought emergency-room care for vaginal bleeding. Patel was eventually convicted of self-inducing an abortion and of child neglect for abandoning the fetus. Patel’s lawyers argued that the fetus was stillborn at 23 to 24 weeks, an age at which abortion is still legal in many states. In court, Indiana’s expert witness disputed the facts of the case, using discredited scientific evidence to argue that the fetus was a week or two older and had drawn breath. According to Deepa Iyer, an activist and scholar, “Patel’s conviction amounts to punishment for having a miscarriage and then seeking medical care, something that no woman should worry would lead to jail time.” Patel is currently serving twenty years in prison, pending an appeal, which the Indiana Supreme Court will hear shortly.
Patel, like Bei Bei Shuai, the first woman arrested on feticide charges in Indiana, is Asian American. (Unlike Patel, Shuai went free after pleading guilty to a lesser charge.) Racialized bodies are often more vulnerable to misogynistic attacks and erasure than the bodies of white women, who are somewhat insulated by white privilege, as has been illuminated by the work of Kimberlé Crenshaw, Kristie Dotson, and Marita Gilbert, among others. Attention to the intersections between gender and race, as well as other forms of oppression, is crucial here. Patriarchy and hence misogyny in the United States cannot be understood apart from white supremacy. Neither can misogyny be understood in isolation from anti-trans bigotry, as Julia Serano’s treatment of transmisogyny in Whipping Girl (2007) makes apparent. The point generalizes, indicating much theoretical ground to explore.
Strange Love
Despite the rapid upswing in the number and extremity of punitive anti-abortion laws, Republicans maintain that punishment is not their purpose. “Love them both” is a favorite aphorism of the anti-abortion crowd, referring to both the pregnant woman and the embryo or fetus in utero. But it is a strange kind of love that would force the victim of rape or incest to bear a pregnancy to term—or indeed to enforce any pregnancy whatsoever, as Ann Cudd’s work has demonstrated.
And it is a strange kind of love that takes a third of American women to be guilty of murder and, collectively, genocide. Such is the view of Troy Newman, an Evangelical Christian who endorsed Ted Cruz for president last November. Newman’s organization, Operation Rescue, is known for its radical tactics. Scott Roeder, who murdered Kansas abortion provider George Tiller, is among its supporters. Cruz touted Newman’s endorsement proudly, saying that America needed more leaders like him. In his book Their Blood Cries Out (2000), Newman writes:
By comparing abortion directly to any other act of premeditated contract killing, it is easy to see that there is no difference in principle. However, in our society, a mother of an aborted baby is considered untouchable whereas any other mother, killing any other family member, would be called what she is: a murderer.
In the chapter “Moms Who Murder,” Newman elaborates:
In our current social climate, it is acceptable to lay blame for abortion at the feet of the abortionists, the social liberals who encourage the abortions, and the law-makers who allow and even pay for them. But the mother is the one person we are not allowed to call guilty. Ironically, she is the one who needs most to see what she has done. . . . By confronting the woman with her sin, our objective is to get her to see the evil that has resulted from her actions. By withholding truthful confrontation from her, we prevent her from being brought to repentance and ultimate restoration.
In January, Cruz appointed Newman one of the co-chairs of his group Pro-Lifers for Cruz. Cruz called each co-chair “a true inspiration.”
The misogynist's bullying can feel like a moral crusade, not a witch-hunt.
Following Trump’s disastrous interview with Matthews and subsequent backtracking, many commentators, including MSNBC’s Rachel Maddow and Gail Collins of the New York Times, have argued that Cruz is at least as bad as Trump on these issues, despite what he leaves unsaid about punishing women for having abortions. In light of the above, one might think that Cruz is considerably worse—not in spite of the fact that he remains eerily silent on the subject but precisely because of this. Trump readily acknowledged that women will continue to have abortions if they are banned: “well, you know, you’ll go back to a position like they had where people will perhaps go to illegal places.” By contrast, Cruz and some of his “inspirations” effectively erase these women from the discourse. Perhaps the thought is that such women would simply cease to exist in their envisaged America—that when abortion providers are shut down, and pro-choice ideologues are no longer leading women astray, women will stop seeking abortions. Women who would have abortions in the absence of propaganda are deemed an abomination. Worse than immoral, they are profoundly unnatural. Such thinking proceeds by way of a potent mix of misogyny and sexism.
Wounded, Downcast Misogyny
Women are being punished. But what are they being punished for, exactly? There is a common assumption on the left that social conservatives seek to punish women for having sex outside of marriage and that the fight against abortion is, therefore, largely intended to police women’s bodies and control their sexuality. These motives are doubtless part of the murky mix. But why prohibit access to abortion for women who are the victims of rape and incest? Republican presidential nominees in recent elections have all been anti-abortion but favored a “rape and incest” exception—as does Trump, taking his moral cues from Ronald Reagan. But both Cruz and Marco Rubio opposed the exception.
According to a recent Gallup poll, their stance is not especially extreme. Nearly one in five Americans would go further, wishing to criminalize abortion under any circumstances, ruling out even “life of the mother” exceptions that many hard-line anti-abortion activists reluctantly accede to. So it is hard to credit the idea that the most uncompromising abortion opponents truly seek to save lives either. And if the goal is to prevent abortions per se, then why have social conservatives been increasingly hostile—as in the debate about Burwell v. Hobby Lobby (2014)—to the many and often cheap forms of birth control that prevent fertilization?
So there is the puzzle: What are women held to be guilty of doing or being?
Selfish, I think; cold, callous, and heartless, neglecting their obligations and refusing to nurture. Rush Limbaugh described Hillary Clinton as “totally controlling, not soft and cuddly. Not sympathetic. Not patient. Not understanding.” The complaint alleges that women who abort withhold care and feminine safe haven—ostensibly from the fetus but also, one suspects, from some of the men projecting their own sense of abandonment onto it.
The same locus of aggression plausibly lay behind Rush Limbaugh’s 2012 attack on Georgetown University law student Sandra Fluke. Limbaugh repeatedly called Fluke a “slut” and a “prostitute” on his radio show after she argued before House Democrats that religious institutions ought to be required to provide health insurance that covers contraception. In a strikingly moralistic screed, Limbaugh railed against her as a “typical liberal” and “feminazi.” He chastised Fluke for being “a woman who is happily presenting herself as an immoral, baseless, no-purpose-to-her-life woman.” One might have thought that the problem was too much purpose and direction in her life, not too little.
Limbaugh is an expert at channeling a sense of confusion, loss, and sadness common in his target audience—primarily white men—and transforming it into anger, partly by furnishing them with suitable moral narratives in which they are cast as victims. According to Limbaugh, Fluke was taking his own and his listeners’ tax dollars to finance her morally lax lifestyle because her birth control was covered by her health insurance. Fluke was thus presented as an outlet for aggression toward feckless, blasé women who expect something from men but give them nothing in return. The point of the prostitution metaphor—with Limbaugh and his audience cast by turns as Fluke’s client or pimp—was that Fluke was reneging on her end of the bargain. What is worse, she felt entitled. She expected the men’s money but would not supply the goods or services they had coming. So they were getting screwed by Fluke, even though—or, indeed, because—she was a total stranger.
This case illustrates the tendency to portray women’s independence as a personal affront to men. And, in a way, it is. Patriarchy promises goods and services in increasingly short supply: women’s love, loyalty, emotional labor, and deference. When the promise is broken, some men experience a sense of humiliation, even betrayal, not simply loss. But it is hard to be outraged about a sin of omission committed by no one in particular. This may explain Limbaugh’s recourse to the taxpayer narrative, which depicts a social relationship between his listeners and Fluke on the thinnest basis imaginable: they are paying their taxes and so she, the lazy harlot, is committing highway robbery.
It took quite a story to get from the premise to the conclusion. But, to his artistic if not moral credit, Limbaugh managed it.
Such misogyny does not share the high-minded moralism of much anti-abortion discourse. The tone here is aggrieved, wounded, resentful, and bitter. Whereas Trump’s misogyny is domineering, Limbaugh’s speaks to the disappointed. Members of his target audience are not alphas, nor those who antecedently see themselves as occupants of the moral high ground. Rather his audience comprises primarily those who feel like underdogs, stepped upon and victimized. Misogyny of this kind stems from a position of perceived weakness among those who see themselves as the little guy, who have chips on their shoulders. This perception is often inaccurate, at least in relation to the women they bully, blame, and victimize. But it illustrates how easily even a mild loss of privilege can be experienced as disadvantage relative to—or even oppression by—historically subordinated people. This explains, for example, the channeling of anti-feminist sentiment into the men’s rights movement, which portrays men as an oppressed group in relation to radicalized women, among others.

Sarah Maple, Snow White the Scientist. Courtesy of the artist.
Hot-Tempered, Accusatory Misogyny
The right is not the only place to find self-perceived little guys liable to channel and give vent to misogynist anxieties and hostilities. They can be found on the left as well. Some of the people who currently fit this description support not Donald Trump but, rather, Bernie Sanders. I am referring here to the controversial “Bernie bros” phenomenon.
It is difficult to tell how common—as opposed to salient—misogyny is among ardent Sanders supporters. Some maintain that Bernie bros are not real, that they are the Bigfoots of American politics. Exaggerated, perhaps. But completely mythical? Not likely.
Much of the media discussion of Bernie bros has focused on the misogyny they allegedly level at Hillary Clinton. I have argued elsewhere, by comparison to the treatment of Australia’s first female prime minister, Julia Gillard, that Clinton has plausibly come in for misogynistic attacks from every political direction during her current campaign. But the matter is complicated by the fact that Clinton has a long history of being attacked for all sorts of reasons, only some of them based on gender. (After all, Bill Clinton is also a target for what is aptly known as Clinton Derangement Syndrome.) Moreover, it is clear that Clinton is a legitimate target of moral criticisms, especially on foreign policy. And although I believe that there are plausibly gendered double standards at play here, one can disagree about their severity while still recognizing the reality of misogyny among a subset of Sanders’s supporters.
Consider the Nevada Democratic Party convention in mid-May, where Chairperson Roberta Lange administered proceedings in a way that was perceived by some as unfair to Sanders, costing him perhaps as many as four delegates. Whatever one thinks about the propriety of Lange’s conduct, the reactions were overblown, and some had a markedly misogynistic character. Here are some of the phone messages left for Lange afterward, as reported by journalist Jon Ralston:
MAN A: I don’t know what kind of money they are paying to you, but I don’t know how you sleep at night. You are a sick, twisted piece of shit and I hope you’ll burn for this! . . . You cowardly bitch, running off the stage! I hope people find you.
MAN B: Oh Roberta, Roberta, Roberta, you old, old hag. Oh, we watched the whole thing in Nevada. You’re really kinda screwed, lady.
MAN C: Fuck you, bitch!
MAN D: You’re a cunt. Fuck you!
MAN E: You fucking stupid bitch! What the hell are you doing? You’re a fucking corrupt bitch! That is so fucking wrong. You should be ashamed and disgraced. You need to step down from that position because you are bad for America and bad for the Democratic Party.
Not all of the messages were misogynistic, and some of those that were came from women. Perhaps anyone would have gotten some blowback as the result of the controversy. Still, one suspects that a Robert Lange would have been spared much of this.
Misogyny of this kind is clearly moralistic, but it has nothing to do with policing sexual behavior. And it is arguably fixated less on women who break specific gendered norms and expectations than on those who are held to be rule-breakers generally. Hence the fixation on a woman’s perceived lack of fairness and violation of her obligations. And, at least in this and similar cases, this kind of misogyny is a tightly packed powder keg of aggression waiting to be ignited. It alights on women held to be corrupt or unprincipled, untrustworthy or liars, and burns them as scapegoats, witches, and effigies. It is often directed toward a crude composite image pasted over the face of its target. But when your effigy is your body, you go up in flames along with it.
Those caught up in such moralistic misogyny may praise and idolize certain women—the Elizabeth Warrens of the world—as heroines and angels. But as defenses against charges of misogyny go, this is not persuasive. Misogyny generally has no truck with women like these, who are fighting the genuinely good fight in Washington for the little guy and his family.
From the inside, such bullying doesn’t feel like it looks, evidently. It doesn’t feel like unleashing one’s inner Trump in mixed company. Rather it feels as though one is simply standing up for oneself, or for morality, or for the downtrodden—like a moral crusade, not a witch-hunt. And it often feels as if one’s hatred has nothing to do with gender—just this “old, old hag” or “fucking corrupt bitch” in particular.
In social and moral reality, such behavior is indefensible. But indefensibility is not the same thing as unintelligibility. It is not difficult to see why misogynistic aggression might coexist with progressive commitments. Many white men, including those who espouse egalitarian and progressive values—even those who pride themselves on being good feminists—have recently experienced a loss of power and status relative to nonwhites and white women. Some are in denial. And some are angry. Some are lashing out in grief cloaked in outrage.
The strength of these forces will become clearer in November. I confess that I am not optimistic about the outcome. Electing Trump would strike a major blow for patriarchal restoration. Misogynistic social forces are hence pushing in this direction. And if Clinton does win, she will have to govern in the face of a revanchism intensified by Trump’s defeat. Another fear is that the least privileged and most vulnerable women will bear the brunt of the trickle-down aggression.
We will see soon enough. But insofar as there is a distinctively modern strain of misogyny, it is this: the backlash to women’s social progress and to feminism.
About the artist: The photographs in this forum are by Sarah Maple, a British visual artist whose works address sexism, gendered violence, and religious oppression. Her works have been exhibited widely, including at Tate Britain. These photographs are from her Disney Princess series. For more, visit sarahmaple.com.
Bernie as misogynist
Tue, 2016-07-12 15:32 — Paul AdamsI read the article but couldn't quite grasp the thread (other than that Trump and Limbaugh are not nice people, which I already knew). But when I read that Sanders is a misogynist (because of some anonymous phone messages some of his supporters apparently left), I decided that Boston Review is not worth reading anymore.
This commenter claims to have
Tue, 2016-07-12 15:50 — JohnThis commenter claims to have "read the article" and found in it the claim "that Sanders is a misogynst." Yet this is not what the piece says, so the commenter must not have read it after all. Here are the three instances where Sanders is mentioned:
I believe the quotations speak for themselves, but I have bolded the relevant phrases to make it easier for Paul Adams to read.
Bernie Bros
Tue, 2016-07-12 20:15 — Susan DeTarrAt no point did the author say that Sanders was a mysogynist. Rather, she maintained that some of his supporters, known as Bernie bros, were misogynistic as evidenced by the phone messages that they left.
What kinda one-sided crock is this?
Tue, 2016-07-12 18:59 — RickThe thing with Trump is, he uses grade school insults on men all the time. Lyin Ted? C'mon.... it's just who he is. I think the article would be better served if it had also mentioned Bill Clinton's treatment of women, up to and including his documented participation in Jeffery Epstein's sex tourism flights.
Are there men who are mean to women? Uh, yeah.
Are there women who are mean to men. Yup.
Women are the majority in colleges. They live longer. They spend more money. Like so many social causes, apparently it will never be enough until all men everywhere bow down and accept women as their social and intellectual betters. Good luck with that one.... LOL!
Rick: "apparently it will
Sun, 2016-07-17 09:08 — RobRick: "apparently it will never be enough until all men everywhere bow down and accept women as their social and intellectual betters"
You here assume that the only alternative to the current hierarchy is another hierarchy. But the alternative is toe resist hierarchy.
"Women are the majority in colleges. They live longer. They spend more money."
That in no way justifies male misogynistic behaviour against women.
the truth about misogyny
Wed, 2016-07-13 08:40 — elmerA man wants a wife, not a co-worker.
Elmerrrrrrrr
Mon, 2016-07-18 13:45 — BillieAre you so comfortable in your worldview that you would speak to what all men want? Or is a man who prefers to treat women as equals not really a man? Either way, lol omg
In the garrulous swipe at
Wed, 2016-07-13 09:07 — cjaIn the garrulous swipe at berating men in general, Trump in particular, the article missed the elephant in the room- that Trump- to name one example- hired a woman to build Trump Towers at a time when woman were simply NOT hired in construction fields, never mind manage a huge project like Trump Towers.
Like Paul Adams, I agree that Boston Review is no longer worth reading
cja has not read the article.
Sun, 2016-07-17 09:11 — Robcja has not read the article. If cja did read it they would see that token support is not inconsistent with misogyny because misogyny is not a general hatred of women.
Isn't partriarchal restoration the goal of college feminists?
Wed, 2016-07-13 09:49 — grayswindirI've followed the campus college feminist's panic with some amusement. Pretty much everything they're demanding is a restoration of what they claim is ' the patriarchy'. Government oversight and control of their lives, restrictions on and protection from their own sexuality, men forced into rigid guidelines as benevolent protectors of women with any recreational or non-committed sexual activity highly discouraged...
Feminism becomes a rabbit
Wed, 2016-07-13 09:56 — BobFeminism becomes a rabbit hole because it is rooted in a belief that either a.) men and women are not, apart from reproductive organs, biologically different and the differences we observe are entirely socially constructed or b.) that even if we accept that there are biological differences, these differences and/or the biases derived from them are undesirable and there is therefore a great public interest in eliminating them. From there, the more invested you become in feminism, the more you fall into a rabbit hole where every single gendered difference in human interaction is oppressive. You will never escape from that hole and your only option is to just dwell in it, exploring its infinite depths.
But none of these premises are settled or even desirable. Even if you could take the author's world view to its logical end, arguably you'd risk basic human survival. Effectively, the author is seeking androdany - which is antethical to basic hetersexual sex that is heavily reliant upon gender difference, not sameness. It breeds hyper-individualism, hampering the basic need for close human compianship and replaces it with romanticized notions of careerism and going at it alone.
Also, as a practical matter, how are the author's goals even enforceable without risking basic western values of free and open societies? If mere think pieces and academic ramblings were enough, we'd surely already be where the author wants us to be - given the deluge of this ideology for at least a half century. Since that hasn't worked (indeed we are told we're more sexist today than ever before) the next logical steps are things like indoctrination in college, speech codes, hate speech laws, censorship, etc. - which are all in varying states of implementation as we speak. All of these are antithetical to western values - likely why we're are also seeing increasing anti-western views in feminism.
Of course, this doesn't even take into account the mountains of biological evidence which very much calls into queestion social construct theory.
In the end, when you really dig into the theories behind feminism you come away with the undeniable conclusion that it is not an objective discipline, even though it has a monopoly on the conversation of gender in academia. This is a problem because people often mistake monoply for authority, therefore a lot of bad, poorly sourced ideas are simply taken at facevalue for the avg. person who doesn't invested heavily in the topic. Feminism is also reliant upon its past righteous self-righteousness, i.e., it tends to shame people into compliance by using its righteous past (say voting rights) as a cudgel to beat detractors with. Like any topic, there needs to be an objective discipline governing the topic of gender. Feminism is obviously not that. I don't think you ever replace feminism, but perhaps it is possible to develop a new discipline which beats it on the merits.
Mostly agree accept...
Thu, 2016-07-14 16:48 — SheldonI disagree that feminism has a monopoly in academia. This started to change sometime in the 2000s. The rise of men's studies and increasing presence of men's rights activism as well as dissident or independant feminism has, for that last number years, presented a viable counter-point to ideological and gender feminism's hegemony on the topic of gender. This is true despite the ban of men's groups by Canadian universities, which may be seen as a frightened reaction against the growth of the men's rights movement in recent years. There is also a continuing slow move away from the phrase "women's studies" to the gender neutral "gender studies" which creates leeway for other previously marginalized voices on the topic of gender. Of course, there is a corresponding reaction against these developments by the ideological gender feminists, but at least now it seems like they got a fight on their hands instead of just showing up and taking the flag with no resistance.
Kate Manne detail the logic
Sun, 2016-07-17 09:23 — RobKate Manne detail the logic of misogyny. Bob's reply is completely detached from the article and proceeds to talk to a vague strawman. At no point does Bob bother to cite or even name a specific opinion that he disagrees with. It is all one big vague "feminists".
"how are the author's goals even enforceable without risking basic western values of free and open societies?"
As a very small start, Bob, you could actually read the article before you comment. I guarantee that "free and open society" won't crumble if you read a text.
"indeed we are told we're more sexist today than ever before"
Who is telling you that? Not the present article. There has been significant progress. But there are also waves of backlash and setbacks. Progress means ending harmful, misogynistic behaviours but it also means uncovering, naming and acting against problems that were all along problematic but previously went under the radar.
Gosh, is this essay really 5
Wed, 2016-07-13 10:45 — ChurchsoxGosh, is this essay really 5,200 words long? All to say that when members of one gender disappoint members of the other(s), the offended party is apt to say something tacky.
By contrast, Rev. King's "Letter From Birmingham Jail" is 1,400 words and Martin Luther's "95 Theses" are just shy of 2,700. Shoot, the outline for Operation Overlord was only 6,400.
My takeaway from this piece is that we should all practice concise writing, especially when discussing the obvious. We may no longer be killing trees for inflated prose, but we can still needlessly burn bandwidth.
Churchsox, could you perhaps
Sun, 2016-07-17 09:25 — RobChurchsox, could you perhaps then provide a 1,400 words long piece that more consisely makes the same points as the original article? You can post it in a comment here.
disappointing
Wed, 2016-07-13 11:09 — NY ManThis is classic. Men say mean things to women in political or work environments=misogyny. No mention of how men treat each other. Men's interactions with other men are an order of magnitude more hostile than their interactions with women. Go to an all-male firehouse some time and see how they treat each other. It is wide variety of testing, ridicule, hierarchy building and team building, all done informally.
Subject a woman to a tenth of that and you'll land up with a 2000 page EEOC complaint.
What the author is actually arguing for is that men should treat women better than they treat men because misogyny.
What's more, her ability to see the other side of an issue is near zero. We get paragraphs of screed implying that pro-lifers are misogynist. Why is it so hard to accept that those people see aborting as baby-killing? You don't have to agree, and you can argue the other side (which makes many good points), but being against baby-killing is not the same as being misogynist.
Arghhhh, what's the point? She'll never learn.
NY Man: "No mention of how
Sun, 2016-07-17 09:32 — RobNY Man: "No mention of how men treat each other."
Grant for sake of argument your claim that men are even worse to each other. Is that a counterargument against the mechanisms of misogyny detailed in the article? No, it isn't. Patriarchy doesn't mean that all males are nice buddies. The hierarchy is more complex than that.
NY Man: "We get paragraphs of screed implying that pro-lifers are misogynist."
The section of the text that relates to abortion describes how Nixon used abortion as a political strategical tool. You do not engage with that part of the text.
The article also includes this bit: "if the goal is to prevent abortions per se, then why have social conservatives been increasingly hostile—as in the debate about Burwell v. Hobby Lobby (2014)—to the many and often cheap forms of birth control that prevent fertilization?"
That is a very good question and you in no way engage with it.
You have one good point
Mon, 2016-07-18 14:36 — BillieHiya NY man! Did you know that there is a wide array of feminist thought which, while usually focused on female experiences, also seeks to foster equality and empowerment for all people? Like, as a boy growing up, I always hated the expectation that I should willingly submit to being ridiculed, tested, or ranked within a heirarchy of maleness. I never cared about it, nor did I want any part of it, so I mostly avoided those situations. Reading about feminism has made me realize that none of these things are essential to a male existence, and that the fact that we are taught to behave this way is a symptom of the patriarchy which feminism genrally seeks to dismantle.
Also, you said "What the author is actually arguing for is that men should treat women better than they treat men because misogyny." And this is true if you ignore the fact that many, many men treat eachother with respect and kindness, in spite of the expectations to do otherwise.
Misogynist responses to this thoughtful article
Wed, 2016-07-13 13:35 — Gregory DonovanPredictably, many of the men responding to this article, some of whom seem to be Republican and/or conservative apologists, are characteristically displaying many of the traits carefully described in this essay. Most of the objections to it are based on familiar arguments designed to distract from the political and social goals which actually are part of the increased awareness encouraged by feminism, not some simplistic nonsense invented by "mansplainers" telling us what feminism "really is." I've been a feminist all my life, and in so many ways, my mother who worked in a factory and my grandmother who worked as a farm wife were also feminists, and although I didn't use that term early on when I was a teen, my instincts took me in that direction, and the women who raised me probably never would have used that term to describe themselves--they simply lived it in their actions and attitudes. My mother was underpaid and put in risk of her life because of dual standards for pay and yes, even safety, for female factory employees, and my grandmother once took a broom to me because I used the phrase "women's work," as she should have done--even though I had used the phrase without belieiving in it because I thought it would get me out of helping her with the laundry one day when I preferred to be out working in the fields with my grandfather.
Any man with a daughter, I would have thought, would soon find their way into becoming a feminist, but sadly, the case of Donald Trump is a peak example of why that's not how it goes. His misogyny is so invisible to his own massive ego because he's a narcissist who doesn't fully recognize that other human beings are actually real--they're all simply tools in his ego parade.
Regarding the misogyny of the left, my own Facebook page was filled with "Bernie bros" (and some women, too) ranting about their loyalty to Bernie (a good person worthy of support, to be sure) by viciously attacking Hillary Clinton as a "lying bitch," a "worthless cunt," etc. Apparently, they were under the misapprehension that it was okay to talk like that as long as you were frustrated or angry toward a woman. There's anger, there's wit, and then there's plain old hatred of women and they are obviously not the same thing.
The entire planet will be better off if more women are in positions of genuine power--not simply Hillary Clinton, though that's a good start. Part of the reason why many Scandinavian countries often make the list of "happiest countries" is because of the progressive, humane policies which have been advocated and implemented by women in government and in the corporate board room.
I could only wish for the same here in the good ole USA.
Actually, Scandanavian
Wed, 2016-07-13 16:37 — BobActually, Scandanavian countries have the gender equality paradox:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5LRdW8xw70
Basically, the more egalitarian the society, the more freedom people have to do what they want to do. It's just that women and men aren't making the choices feminists want them to make. As you will see in the documentary, massive, cross-cultural studies have been peformed confirming this paradox across the globe, throughout human history (indeed your anecdotes confirm the theory as well - i.e., the less fair, more desperate the situation, the less pronounced gender difference is). This is why we have the author engaging in mental gymnastics to explain away the choices we make as not really our own and as part of the patriarchial order. This is also why feminists have so much invested in social engineering - they basically can't have people acting freely becaue if they did, feminism fails. Without patriarchy theory, the bulk of modern feminism falls apart - hence why they are so desperately clinging to it.
Bob: "This is why we have the
Sun, 2016-07-17 09:42 — RobBob: "This is why we have the author engaging in mental gymnastics to explain away the choices we make as not really our own and as part of the patriarchial order."
With "choices we make" are you referring to people calling women "cunts"? Or trying to take power of women's reproductive health? Or Trump's misogynistic outbursts? If no then you have again failed to read the article you are writing comments under.
The so called paradox you are talking about is contested and the nordic countries and in no way fully egalitarian. Many of the egalitarian projects launched there are also under continual development. For example, in higher education the number of women PhDs have increased a lot but the effect has not yet reached the level of professorship because of the inherent slowness of the process of working your way up to the level of professor.
"Part of the reason why many
Thu, 2016-07-14 17:26 — Anonymous"Part of the reason why many Scandinavian countries often make the list of "happiest countries" is because of the progressive, humane policies which have been advocated and implemented by women in government and in the corporate board room."
Actually those "humane policies" have been advocated and implemented by men for over a century now; how silly and ignorant of you to state that the implementation of social democratic policies is soley the result of those ever so angelic, divine, flawless, can-do-no-wrong women. Get real. Way past time to drop that little fantasy.
Your last paragraph (that more women in power means a better planet) is a tired cliche that has been disproven many times over. Hillary Clinton, as just one example, is a military-industrialist plutocrat who will only likely continue the INhumane neo-liberal policies that have harmed so much of the working and middle income people of the US and elsewhere. She was a draftee of the Trans Pacific Partnership. Enough said. Margarat Thatcher, as another example among many, was a heartless, callous, bloodlusting fanatic against the working people and the poor who caused the suicide rate among the working class, especially working class males, to skyrocket in the 80s. How "humane" and "progressive" she was. I know you would like to say these are exceptions (though you seem to be in denial about Clinton, or just simply ignorant), but they aren't. In fact, the leader of the shift back to unregulated predatory capitalism from the more humane and progressive (Franklin D. Roosevelt led) new deal capitalism was a woman: Ayn Rank.
Kindly take off your ideological feminist lenses and see the reaility of the world please, thanks.
Anonymous: "how silly and
Sun, 2016-07-17 09:45 — RobAnonymous: "how silly and ignorant of you to state that the implementation of social democratic policies is soley the result of those ever so angelic, divine, flawless, can-do-no-wrong women."
Gregory Donovan did not state any such claim. You made it up. Why?
He strongly implied it, and I
Mon, 2016-07-18 14:37 — SheldonHe strongly implied it, and I've seen numerous times over the years that claim being made.
"He strongly implied it"
Wed, 2016-07-20 15:48 — Rob"He strongly implied it"
I do not think so - note that he started with "Part of the reason". He at most claimed that women in power has better consequences. That is a claim to examine further. But it is still clear that "Anonymous" created a straw man.
Note also how "Anonymous" switches to talk about "social democratic policies" in general. But even though some aspects of the social democratic project was well underway in many countries long before women reached positions of power in any significant numbers, some other aspects do seem to have gained momentum in correlation with the uptick of organized political womens movements in the Nordic countries in the late 60s and 70s in the Nordic countries. While causality is always hard to pin down "Anonymous" preferred methods of straw men, individual case citings and overall dismissive attitude is of no help.
If he/she claimed that "women
Thu, 2016-07-21 09:50 — AnonymousIf he/she claimed that "women in power has better consequences", then actually he/she wouldn't be merely implying it, he/she would be directly stating that merely by being women things would turn out better (which is probably what he/she meant), which there's no evidence for whatsoever and reeks of putting women on a pedestal. If that was indeed his/her argument, then no, I did not set up a straw man.
But I never professed I know the holy truth. I could be wrong; I could be right. I don't think this forum is the right place where you can outline a proper, well-defined argument. No one here is doing it, me included. But I have my strong doubts about the claims being made here by the author of this article and those who support its claims, and my doubts are backed by reasoning, not ideology.
Whether it's true or not that there was an increase in social democratic values in Nordic countries since the late 60s and 70s in concurrence with the increase in organized second wave women's movements, well, I don't know. I haven't studied much into that (but somehow I strongly doubt there's a correlation). But interestingly in the English speaking world at least, if anything there was a degradation of social democratic values concurrently with the spread of second wave feminism since the the 1970s. One could just as well make an argument that there's a correlation between increasing feminism and decreasing social democracy, especially in the United States. But I wouldn't make that argument myself, at least not right at the moment because I haven't done the studying or research required to control for all the variables, etc.
"If that was indeed his/her
Thu, 2016-07-21 15:28 — Rob"If that was indeed his/her argument, then no, I did not set up a straw man."
Look at these two statements.
(1) "implementation of social democratic policies is soley the result of those ever so angelic, divine, flawless, can-do-no-wrong women"
(2) "women in power has better consequences"
the difference seems quite clear. 1 says women are perfect and infallible politicians. 2 does not say that. For example, 2 is compatible with a situation where some social goal is satisfied a little better, say 5% better, but other social goals are satisified about the same degree when there are more women in political power than before. But your straw man 1 is of course not compatible with that.
"But I have my strong doubts about the claims being made here by the author of this article"
Since you have so far not correctly described the statements actually made by the author, and have misdescribed the view of another commenter that you reacted pretty harshly to, isn't it a better approach to try some more on getting the interpretation part right and withold your "strong doubts" until later?
Gregory Donovan wrote "Part of the reason why many Scandinavian countries often make the list of "happiest countries" is because of the progressive, humane policies". In reaction to that you talked about social democratic policies/values. Perhaps you two are thinking of different specific policies?
I think it is true that the part of the social democratic project that aims toward gradual decommodification of life under capitalism (see Esping Anderson "The Three Worlds of Welfare Capitalism") did halt and in some dimensions began to backtrack in the nordic countries starting in the 80s. The neoliberal wave affected all countries in the west. At the same time or some time earlier more women came to power and there was significant political progress for gender equality. E.g. publicly funded and provided child day care (liberating women to participate more as equals on the labor market), universal child leave policies, legal and social project to empower of women, beginning of the steps to the current legislation that criminalizes pimps and johns but not the (mostly) women caught up in the prostitution system, systematic efforts to counter old, narrow, reactionary gender norms in terms of life projects, interests and habits. And more.
I would myself put all the mentioned policies under the heading of "progressive, humane policies". Some would also seem them as part of the social democratic project but I think at least a few of those policies also have appeal in non-social democratic traditions. Anyway perhaps Gregory Donovan also had such things in mind when he spoke of "progressive, humane policies"?
No contemporary industrialized nation, not even nordic countries, have put only women in positions of power so we don't really know what the outcomes would be if that happened. But the nordics were early in the move toward the more modest (but still hard won!) goal of equal representation. There are some interesting arguments for how that move can improve the quality of political decision making. The field called social epistomology covers some of that ground. A good general introduction to that field is available at http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/epistemology-social/
Let’s go back to what
Thu, 2016-07-21 21:45 — AnonymousLet’s go back to what “Gregory Donovan” actually typed.
“The entire planet will be better off if more women are in positions of genuine power […] Part of the reason why many Scandinavian countries often make the list of "happiest countries" is because of the progressive, humane policies which have been advocated and implemented by women in government and in the corporate board room.”
This is their argument that I was initially responding to. Looking at it again, they really weren't saying much, but it is a bit confusing. Sure "part" of the reason Scandinavian countries make the list of happiest countries is because of progressive and humane policies advocated and implemented by some women (but mostly men). All this seems to be saying at first, lacking any other information to go on, is that some women had a part to play in implementing such policies, and if this is all they're saying then I can agree. Fine. But then they confuse things in the same breath by making it seem like they're claiming that it was only or mostly women who implemented such policies, which is not true, because most of the social democratic policies (which is what I’m assuming they mean when they say “progressive, humane”) which have benefitted the most people, excepting some of the ones specifically designed to benefit only women (because some other policies specifically designed for women have been implemented by moslty men long before the 1960s/70s), have been advocated and implemented long before there were significant numbers of women in government and the corporate board room. I think both my confusion and yours stem from this poorly thought out way of constructing their point. I was also disagreeing with their presumption that the entire planet will be better off if more women are in positions of power, and I gave a few cases of this to back up my point. What do you require? Forty or fifty examples on a thread here? I never intended to set out on full scientific study here. At any rate, I hope this clarifies things for you. I wasn’t making up an argument; I wasn’t setting up a straw man. I was responding directly to what the poster was stating in their post, insomuch as I can tell what seemed to be their argument (because I can only work with the information, or lack thereof, provided).
As for the examples you gave of social democratic progress since the rise of second wave feminism, all the examples you gave are laws, policies, and initiatives that have only benefitted women as a group. You gave examples of gynocentrism. During the same time period, there’s been substantial regression for the working class and racial minorities. Feminism has seemed to monopolize focus for only women’s concerns, while other groups have been neglected, including common men. A paradox arose where women would benefit because they are women, but not because they are part of a racial minority or lower income group. So today for example, a black working class woman is by far the most advantaged because she’s a woman, while she’s still disadvantaged because she’s working class and black. Social democracy should not be about benefitting only one group or one identity. This is simply another form of hegemony, which is something that social democracy should work to prevent not foster by only, or mainly, focusing on the health and well being of one group.
Finally, you mention near the end of your last post: “No contemporary industrialized nation, not even nordic countries, have put only women in positions of power so we don't really know what the outcomes would be if that happened.” Right, so then you seem to now agree with me that we would not know, as “Gregory Donovan” claimed above, that the entire planet would be better off if more women are in positions of power.
Sorry had to stop
Thu, 2016-07-14 05:35 — DEEBEEIf one cannot distinguish between crassness and misogyny, perhaps reading the whole article is a waste of time. Trump is crass and responds to people who challenge him in kind. His taking on Rosie, the innocent comment or perhaps, belongs in that category. Rosie as a provocateur has many characteristics, one of them is being --shall we say gravitas. If Trump responds to her why is it that he hates women. Perhaps Rosie, but the entire gender?
Trump is crass but his
Sun, 2016-07-17 09:48 — RobTrump is crass but his crassness comes in the shape of misogynistic expressions.
"If Trump responds to her why is it that he hates women. Perhaps Rosie, but the entire gender?"
If you read the article you will see that it points out that misogyny is not the same as hating "the entire gender".
This does seem like it could
Fri, 2016-07-15 13:41 — SheldonTrump insults everyone and anyone who gets in his way. If women are going to be ever increasingly visible in public positions of power, then people have got to grow up and realize they're not to be coddled and protected from criticism anymore than men are, even if it's the crude, juvenile variety of criticism that comes from the likes of Trump or the likes of anonymous online forum dwellers. The quotation by Trump "They make money for me" is exactly what Trump would expect and say about his male underlings too. Does the author or those who think like her actually believe this would be any different for men? Are you kidding me? If anything it would be even more pronounced for men.
This is all I get from this article: that the author is looking for some kind of special rights and protections -- though she might not be conscious that she's doing this. This kind of twisted irony, and anti-egalitarianism, has long been characteristic of gender and radical feminists, although at the same time there's feminists who have the gall to actually explicitly state they deserve more rights. Funny way of regarding "equality", isn't it?
"people have got to grow up
Sun, 2016-07-17 09:51 — Rob"people have got to grow up and realize they're not to be coddled and protected from criticism anymore than men are, even if it's the crude, juvenile variety of criticism that comes from the likes of Trump or the likes of anonymous online forum dwellers."
Why should we accept misogynistic bullies like Trump and anonymous online forum dwellers? They're not a force of nature. They are malleable humans socialized into misogynistic behaviour and sexist thinking. They can be treated and the harm they do can be curbed. It should never be normalized or taken as a given.
While I did not find this
Sat, 2016-07-16 16:26 — GradWhile I did not find this article to be groundbreaking, I'm not disappointed in the Boston Review. I am, however, disappointed in its apparent readership, (or at least the male readers who comment online), who are doing their best to confirm Manne's observations.
I think you are unreasonably
Sun, 2016-07-17 09:54 — RobI think you are unreasonably kind in calling several of the above commenters readers because they show no sign of actually having read the article they are commenting under. Of course they unintentionally nicely illustrate some of the problems the article describes.
Don't be so ridiculous.
Mon, 2016-07-18 15:21 — SheldonDon't be so ridiculous. Criticism of and disagreement with a number of questionable and debatable claims the author makes in this article does not "confirm Manne's observations", unless you are of the absurd opinion that every and any criticism of anything feminist is automatically confirming misogyny, which would be a closed-minded and anti-intellectual position to take. If anything, your statement seems to only support the quasi-religious sacrosanctness that adherents to ideological feminism so often give it. This article is not scientific fact, stop treating it like it's 100% true and immune to criticism.
Sheldon, can you talk without
Wed, 2016-07-20 15:54 — RobSheldon, can you talk without combative and dismissive language against other people? Then please try doing so because your current approach is an impediment.
I think what Grad is getting at is the fact that multiple of the commenters clearly have not read the text and fail completely to engage with the claims and arguments actually made in the text.
Basically a '"state of the
Sun, 2016-07-17 18:22 — michael russellOne topic I would like to have seen her tackle more clearly is the problem of women who support Trump, whose approval rating hovers around 30%. Though far from a majority (obviously, because Trump is an obvious mysoginist) that is still quite a few women. Interesting psychology going on there.
And lastly, from personal experience being a man who has just gone through college, I would say the number one thing that annoys me about "cotemporary females" (I couldn't think of any other way to put it) is not their anger but their reticence. Even women who are far superior to their male counterparts still worry about gaining their affection and adulation, and on a larger scale, I see the feminist movement trying to gain recongition from the popular culture and the political classes who are tied to the very same system of mysoginy that they are trying to destroy. Basically what I am saying is that to truly rid ourselves of the division between sexes, far more radical social change will have to be accepted, and it won't come from an actor's speech at The Grammy's or by electing Hillary instead of Trump.
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