Ellen Pao Isn’t as Complicated as You Think
Asa Mathat for Re/code
Culture
May 27, 2015, 11:06 AM PDT
The title of tech newsmaker of 2015 will likely go to someone best known for a crushing defeat.
Ellen Pao.
Although the former VC was defeated in a head-turning lawsuit that charged an iconic Silicon Valley venture capital firm, Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers, with institutional sexism, her case sparked outrage across the country and sustained a vital conversation about why women are largely absent from the centers of power in the technology industry.
Pao’s day job is also fascinating. She leads the enormously popular social media site Reddit, which, after years of running mostly on autopilot, has ramped up its technology and business development. Her two worlds came together earlier this month when she spearheaded efforts to tackle Reddit’s history of harassment and hostility toward women and other users.
We liveblogged Pao’s remarks today at the Code Conference in Rancho Palos Verdes, Calif., where she was interviewed by Re/code’s Kara Swisher.
Some notable highlights:
- Pao said she “didn’t plan on becoming a symbol,” and while the result wasn’t what she had hoped for, it did encourage others to share their stories.
- On the differing reactions people had to Pao’s trial: “It’s complex. If you’re not invited, is that such a big deal? The difference is, it’s constant … It adds up. And over time, people realize that it is not an even playing field. And that’s what people related to.”
- “Silicon Valley wants to think of itself as a tolerant place, but it’s not an even track to that success … when you see only 6 percent of women in VC firms [and] women CEOs who get pushed out. Same thing with minorities.”
- Pao says the most misunderstood thing about her is that: “I’m not complicated. I was raised in New Jersey, I worked hard, I believed in the meritocracy.”
Follow the liveblog as it happened below:
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First question: Did you regret suing Kleiner Perkins?
Pao: “Not at all. It’s something I thought about deeply beforehand. It was harder than I thought it would be.”
Kara says becoming a symbol is a tough spot, especially given that she lost. Pao says, “I didn’t plan on becoming a symbol. It was more telling my story.”
“Are you the perfect victim? Are you difficult? Are you problematic? Are you likeable? I’m not likeable at all,” says Kara. “Did you become sort of a cartoon figure?”
Pao replies: “It was just so hard to really tell my story. And the courtroom isn’t the best place to do it. People come to it with a lot of baggage. They don’t really know me, but we share an experience. Other people don’t like me because of what I represent.”
Kara: “Is it possible that the world is unfair, and you didn’t do your job very well?” Pao: “It’s possible, but I don’t think so.”
Pao says she hasn’t decided whether to appeal, but confirms the deadline is June 8, as we’ve reported.
Kara asks about the differing reactions of people to the Pao trial, particularly men versus women, commenting that other women in technology seemed to relate to Pao. Why the different opinions about the same set of facts?
Pao responds, “It’s complex. If you’re not invited, is that such a big deal? The difference is it’s constant … It adds up. And over time, people realize that it is not an even playing field. And that’s what people related to.”
This is a fast moving conversation, and Pao is being more direct than you might expect, except about the appeal question. But I’ll give you some more of the back-and-forths.
Kara asks about issues with mansplaining — like Eric Schmidt talking over Megan Smith at SXSW. Pao says she thinks people wouldn’t have brought that to light six months ago. She says she’s sure Schmidt didn’t systematically interrupt on purpose, but the difference is now he’s being called out and can recognize it.
Kara asks about how to change things and create an even playing field. She asks about the “pipeline issue.”
Pao says that’s a way to abdicate responsibility: “Oh God, I hate the ‘pipeline issue.’ … ‘I’m doing my best, it’s a pipeline issue, it’s out of my hands.'”
Kara asks about unconscious bias — Pao says the problem is that after so much repetition, people get used to the status quo. The way it will change is by calling it out.
Kara: “Do you think you’ve suffered professionally for doing this?”
Pao: “It’s a mix. I had a hard time getting a job. It’s out there — I’m not that likeable and I’m a poor performer. Yishan Wong took a chance on me. There were people who wouldn’t talk to me. There were people who were nervous to be seen with me. You have to have a lot of conviction you were right … and a lot of toughness to weather through the personal attacks.”
Kara asks if there’s something Pao can admit she did wrong. Pao: “I wish it were just one thing … but it’s not that easy.”
Kara says the word “inscrutable” was applied to Pao throughout the trial, and it seems to be a word often used for Asians. Silicon Valley thinks of itself as a tolerant place and a meritocracy — is it? Pao says it tries to be, but “it’s not an even track to success.”
Kara: “What would be the things you would fix, besides awareness? Give me three things.”
Pao: “We are experimenting at Reddit. We are trying to make diversity something everyone cares about, and that they value.”
It’s not that there’s a “diversity officer,” but that it’s everyone’s responsibility.
“We’re testing out a no-negotiation policy … We’ve done a ton of research to come up with what is ‘market comp,’ and when somebody comes in we give them what we think is fair.”
Pao: “It’s known that women are one quarter as likely as men to negotiate for salary, and that they’re penalized for it. So instead of that unpleasant interaction, we try to go in and say, ‘This is what we think is fair.'”
“It takes some tension out of that process, and we’ve had people apply to Reddit specifically because of that policy.”
Kara makes a pretty extreme joke that she was trying to fire a man and he asked for a raise, and she was surprised because she hated him.
See, she says, she’s not likeable — but she’s having more success being unlikeable than Pao.
Pao responds, “I’m trying!”
Kara says browsing Reddit makes her want to take a bath.
Pao: “Reddit is the Internet. It has people from all over the world. We have 170 million uniques, and some of them have things to say that we don’t agree with.”
Kara says no, it’s worse that that, that stuff is vile and misogynistic. “Do you have a responsibility to take care of it?”
Pao says the big incident with a celebrity photo leak was particularly hard for the Reddit staff. “Overall, we’ve decided we don’t want to be a site where people put stolen pictures.”
But she still wants to enable people to say what they’re going to say. Part of the benefit of anonymity, which has long been part of Reddit, is giving people safety to express their ideas. So Reddit wants to make sure people feel comfortable expressing themselves.
Pao describes recent policies against revenge porn. “We are not about stolen naked pictures.”
Kara jokes that’s a good motto.
Pao: “We have always talked about being this platform for freedom of speech, and now we have to own up to some of the behavior of our site and be a place where everyone feels comfortable expressing their ideas.”
Kara: What do people misunderstand about you? You’re a complicated person, tell us what we don’t understand.
Pao replies: “Actually, no. I’m not complicated. I was raised in New Jersey, I worked hard, I believed in the meritocracy.”
Audience question: How are you going to sell Reddit to advertisers?
Pao: “We just brought on a mobile ads chief, we’re looking at native ads on mobile.”
Kara’s follow-up: Do you imagine becoming a content company? Pao says they actually are already. For instance, co-founder Alexis Ohanian is doing a podcast and a video project, coming soon. Reddit also built its own “AMA” app for celebrity Q&As.
And another follow-up: Are you concerned about media companies stealing your content? Pao says she prefers for Reddit users to get credit.
New audience question topic: What advice would you have for younger women and minorities? Pao: “Be aware of where you’re going into. Set yourself up to succeed in an environment that’s hopefully more open than others. But it’s hard, because somebody has to be the first.”
New question — so far, all are from women in the audience: You said you didn’t intend to be a symbol. Do you want to continue to be a symbol? Pao: “It’s not my personality. I’m much more of an introvert. I think going out and being successful in my job as CEO of Reddit will hopefully be helpful to people.”
Kara: Are you going to write a book? Pao: If I had time, I would, but I don’t.
One more audience question: Was the chatter about your husband and his financial dealings unfair?
Pao: “Yes, I did not like that at all. I don’t think it would have come up with other people.”
And with that, they exit the stage, and I get to give my fingers a break from that familiar liveblogging cramp.
“There’s so many things I want to ask you,” says Kara.